The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 25

[Stacyhs]

Nota Bene: In Italy judges do NOT interpret law. They are not allowed to. In Italy, lawyers have to learn the Italian Penal Code off by heart. Unlike in England & Wales, where judges can accept references to previous case law and interpret accordingly, according to precedent, an Italian judge CANNOT.


Massei's decision still stands as the legal outcome of the trial.

Marasca breaching the scope of their remit does not cancel out the facts found at the trial.

Hmmm...

Italian judges are prohibited from using analogy in the interpretation of law, not from interpreting law.

Once a trial has been concluded and judgement passed, a party found guilty can appeal the decision to an appeal court. If the appeal fails, it may be possible to appeal to the supreme court, but only on the grounds of the wrong interpretation or application of the law by a judge.

Legal Systems, Laws and Courts in Italy

The law specifies that the regular exercise of judicial functions by a judge, including the interpretation of legal norms and valuation of facts and evidence, may not trigger the judge’s civil liability. (Id. art. 2(b).)

http://www.loc.gov/law/foreign-news/article/italy-civil-liability-of-judges/

Typically, national judges must strive to interpret national law in compliance with their constitution.

In addition, they are under the obligation to interpret domestic laws in such manner so as not to breach EU and ECHR law obligations.

Read more: http://www.canestrinilex.com/resour...ational-judges-an-introduction/#ixzz4lokVmrCI

Massie and Hellmann were both overturned. Are you claiming that the facts found in Hellmann's court still stand? I hope so!

 

[Planigale]

Guede said he went into the small bathroom and got some towels... towels were found in Meredith's room. Should I assume he said he did that when someone else did?
Massei and Nencini both SPECULATED (ASSUMED if you prefer) the Luminol traces were made from Meredith's blood when science said they were not. That is, unless you can scientifically explain how a trace made from Meredith's blood can be both TMB negative AND not have Meredith's DNA.

Why do you have such a predilection for irrelevant things? Massei was overturned, and rightfully so. When judges start contradiction expert witnesses and science in order to rule as they wish then they deserve to be overturned. And only Massei could be stupid enough to come up with such a 'bidet' theory.

This is strong proof that Guede was present. He knew something about the crime scene (the presence of towels in the victim's room) that he would not know and be unlikely to guess at if he had not been present. It seems foolish to argue that Guede did not enter the bathroom since he said he did, and there is the evidence of the towels he said he fetched.

 

[Bill Williams]

You know, I keep waiting for some writer, some journalist, some scholar, some lawyer, some judge or some politician to say something - anything - to prove your idol Quennell correct on this one but for two years now the only source of such conjecture I can find is.... Quennell. So here's a little tip for you; until such time that Italy decides the Marasca court violated some aspect of Italian law and declares a new trial, it is the Marasca ruling that stands as the legal outcome of the case.

As Thitical Crinker said, you will never admit you are wrong.

Well, does Machiavelli count as "some writer"?

And in fairness, in relation to Raffaele's compensation hearings, the Florence lower- court which denied it seemed at least to be leaning in that direction, even if they'd heard no evidence themselves.

Boninsegna's court which acquitted Knox of misconduct against police did not lean like that - so there's a case to be made that Italy regards Sollecito (though innocent of the main charges) responsible for how the cops treated him.....

..... but Knox not responsible for how the cops treated her. Long time lurkers who've read everything could be forgiven for summarizing into one word THAT weird situation.....

Italy.

 

[Bill Williams]

Oh my, that's hilarious!!! Pssst, you might want to get up with the Italian Supreme Court and let them know because I'm pretty sure they're under the impression that their ruling was final.

You know, I keep waiting for some writer, some journalist, some scholar, some lawyer, some judge or some politician to say something - anything - to prove your idol Quennell correct on this one but for two years now the only source of such conjecture I can find is.... Quennell.

Francesco Marecsa, the Kercher family lawyer, has written a tract of some kind detailing his own experiences with the case. It is not widely available, and I can probably get my hands on small snippets of it - machine translated.

As much as he continues to milk this case for all its worth - as much as he claims he can say all those damning things which the prosecutors themselves cannot say (!), both Quennell and Vixen have to take into account that.....

...... even Maresca sees the Marasca/Bruno, 2015 Cassation decision as a full acquittal which definitively ends this case.

As for the "some journalist" part of this, even Andrea Vogt has written that the 2015 Cassation section definitively acquitted, and cited isolated Monday-morning legal-prognosticators of trying to bring private charges against all and sundry into Florence courtrooms. As dismissive as she has been about "innocentisti", she is now equally dismissive of "guilters" or PGP. Including that private intervener in Florence.

She was once a hero of Machiavelli's here on this thread - Machiavelli had called Barbie Nadeau an "approximate journalist" or some such thing, but had at one time saved the gold standard of journalism for Andrea Vogt. Now he simply won't talk about her.

Barbie Nadeau, despite being humiliated by Winterbottom's 2014 film, every once in a while still claims that "Knox knows something which she's not telling us," but in the main sticks now with the standard "definitive acquittal" language.

 

[TruthCalls]

Well, does Machiavelli count as "some writer"?

And in fairness, in relation to Raffaele's compensation hearings, the Florence lower- court which denied it seemed at least to be leaning in that direction, even if they'd heard no evidence themselves.

Boninsegna's court which acquitted Knox of misconduct against police did not lean like that - so there's a case to be made that Italy regards Sollecito (though innocent of the main charges) responsible for how the cops treated him.....

..... but Knox not responsible for how the cops treated her. Long time lurkers who've read everything could be forgiven for summarizing into one word THAT weird situation.....

Italy.

Machiavelli? Ha, no, not really. I meant any 'credible' writer, etc.

How realistic could it be that the Supreme Court could have done something illegal and yet here we sit two years later and not a sniff from an official source that this is the case. Perhaps Vixen could explain why that is?

 

[Bill Williams]

Machiavelli? Ha, no, not really. I meant any 'credible' writer, etc.

How realistic could it be that the Supreme Court could have done something illegal and yet here we sit two years later and not a sniff from an official source that this is the case. Perhaps Vixen could explain why that is?

It's coming up to 6 years since the Hellmann/Zanetti court acquitted the pair, overturning the Massei convictions of 2009.

True, by Hellmann's own admission, he's been pushed aside. Yet we out here in the chattering wastelands of the Internet were promised so much more. We were promised actual arrests! Most assuredly the whole of the Court of Appeals of Perugia is in on this conspiracy, as per Machiavelli's account. President of the Perugian Court of Appeal, De Nunzio, conspired to have Judge Helllmann appointed for the sole reason of acquitting Knox and Sollecito.

What's the Statute of Limitations for accepting a Masonic/Mafia bribe?

 

[bagels]

It's coming up to 6 years since the Hellmann/Zanetti court acquitted the pair, overturning the Massei convictions of 2009.

True, by Hellmann's own admission, he's been pushed aside. Yet we out here in the chattering wastelands of the Internet were promised so much more. We were promised actual arrests! Most assuredly the whole of the Court of Appeals of Perugia is in on this conspiracy, as per Machiavelli's account. President of the Perugian Court of Appeal, De Nunzio, conspired to have Judge Helllmann appointed for the sole reason of acquitting Knox and Sollecito.

What's the Statute of Limitations for accepting a Masonic/Mafia bribe?

According to Mach if a US tourist commits a blatant sex crime overseas the US will bend over backwards to protect them..

"An American expat will spend the rest of his life behind bars for child sexual abuse crimes committed in the Philippines. A Los Angeles federal court handed down the life imprisonment sentence on Monday, May 18...The PROTECT Act criminalizes sexual abuse of children by a U.S. citizen in a foreign country."

Hmmm it is called the PROTECT ACT but the name doesn't seem to be in reference to the American tourists....

I wonder why Hellmann acquitted? It couldn't have been for the reasons listed in his report...that would be crazy. A witness is unreliable just because they contradicted themselves at every opportunity and lied to police? A stabbing wasn't necessarily committed using two knives just because one of the wounds is messy and indecipherable enough to have been caused by any sharped edged object? Unmatched stains aren't made in the victims blood during the murder just because they test negative for blood and the victim's DNA? Those points are just crazy it must be some sort of conspiracy. But what

 

[Wilson85]

We all know about the clean-up in the murder-room, where Knox and Sollecito used their patented DNA detector (AKA the lamp) to identify three sets of DNA - Knox's Sollecito's and Rudy's), cleaning up perfectly two, and leaving the third (Rudy's).

But the other clean-up was just prior to Meredith's arrival at the cottage that horrible night.

I think AK had the witch power from smoking weed. But as soon as the effect of the drugs wear off she loses her power and turns stupid.

They had the genius idea to turn off their phones and start playing a video to establish an alibi. But later they destroy it by playing music in the morning at a time they say they slept

They had the genius idea to involve Rudy. They clean up their own traces and leave only Rudy's. But later, during an interrogation, AK places herself at the crime scene and blame Patrick - just to cover up for Rudy

They get rid of bloody clothes and one of the murder knifes but then bring the other knife back to RS kitchen.

 

[Bill Williams]

I think AK had the witch power from smoking weed. But as soon as the effect of the drugs wear off she loses her power and turns stupid.

They had the genius idea to turn off their phones and start playing a video to establish an alibi. But later they destroy it by playing music in the morning at a time they say they slept

They had the genius idea to involve Rudy. They clean up their own traces and leave only Rudy's. But later, during an interrogation, AK places herself at the crime scene and blame Patrick - just to cover up for Rudy

They get rid of bloody clothes and one of the murder knifes but then bring the other knife back to RS kitchen.

It's almost as if there were Two Knoxes.

One who could masterfully hoodwink seasoned criminal investigators, and the other who was a fairly typical 20 year old, going to a foreign country to learn languages and perhaps (blush) sow a few wild oats in the process.

They hihacked the name "Foxy Knoxy" to create the sex-crazed she-devil personna, such caricature which was/is unknown to anyone who has ever made acquaintence of Knox #2. Before or since.

Raffaele - they still don't know what to do with him. Yet even he agrees with 20/20 hindsight that taking a pocketknife into the Questura that night may not have been wise.

Yet he's never had answer - not really - to his own question: what does any of this have to do with me?

 

[Stacyhs]

I think AK had the witch power from smoking weed. But as soon as the effect of the drugs wear off she loses her power and turns stupid.

They had the genius idea to turn off their phones and start playing a video to establish an alibi. But later they destroy it by playing music in the morning at a time they say they slept

They had the genius idea to involve Rudy. They clean up their own traces and leave only Rudy's. But later, during an interrogation, AK places herself at the crime scene and blame Patrick - just to cover up for Rudy

They get rid of bloody clothes and one of the murder knifes but then bring the other knife back to RS kitchen.

Let's not forget the ingenious move the two made when they left Sollecito's bloody footprint on the bathmat and didn't bother to wash, or even rinse, the sink where Knox had washed her hands of Kercher's blood. They followed that by pointing both out to the police. It's probably due to the fact that they just didn't have enough time in the many hours before Knox called Mezzetti and Sollecito called both his carabinieri sister and the carabinieri themselves thereby starting the discovery of the crime in motion.

 

[Vixen]

Let's not forget the ingenious move the two made when they left Sollecito's bloody footprint on the bathmat and didn't bother to wash, or even rinse, the sink where Knox had washed her hands of Kercher's blood. They followed that by pointing both out to the police. It's probably due to the fact that they just didn't have enough time in the many hours before Knox called Mezzetti and Sollecito called both his carabinieri sister and the carabinieri themselves thereby starting the discovery of the crime in motion.

What a crazy idea, a young, talented, bright, funny, beautiful 21-year old English student is mysteriously stabbed in the neck and her clothes stripped off.

The luminol-enhanced footprints of her 20-yearold roommate and her boyfriend are found in the hall, his fooptrint on the bathmat, her DNA mixed in with the victim's blood in the diluted blood drips in the sink and bidet.

What a crazy insane idea!

Sorry? It happened? No! You are kidding me.

 

[Bill Williams]

The luminol-enhanced footprints of her 20-yearold roommate and her boyfriend are found in the hall,

No they were not.

his fooptrint on the bathmat,

No it wasn't

her DNA mixed in with the victim's blood in the diluted blood drips in the sink and bidet.

So?

 

[bagels]

What a crazy idea, a young, talented, bright, funny, beautiful 21-year old English student is mysteriously stabbed in the neck and her clothes stripped off.

The luminol-enhanced footprints of her 20-yearold roommate and her boyfriend are found in the hall, his fooptrint on the bathmat, her DNA mixed in with the victim's blood in the diluted blood drips in the sink and bidet.

What a crazy insane idea!

Sorry? It happened? No! You are kidding me.

This is a perfect working example of this point:

They think [Guede was involved in butchering MK] at an academic level perhaps. But they don't really think it. Because there's no way to make it work. When you guys close your eyes and picture the murder, you picture Amanda stabbing Meredith in the neck. You picture Raffaele ripping off Meredith's bra. You don't really picture Guede. He's just kind of a shadow in the background, because of the inconvenience of the evidence requiring his presence.

There's some crazed person out there, I think they're on twitter with the name Free_Guede or something. Anyway, they got one thing right, which is no guilter theory works with Guede. If AK is guilty, he is innocent.

Amanda doesn't grab a knife to butcher MK with, then pick up the virtual stranger Guede along the way on a random whim. It's a non sequitur.

 

[Stacyhs]

What a crazy idea, a young, talented, bright, funny, beautiful 21-year old English student is mysteriously stabbed in the neck and her clothes stripped off.

Not so mysteriously. Guede is convicted on very strong evidence of her murder.

The luminol-enhanced footprints of her 20-yearold roommate and her boyfriend are found in the hall, his fooptrint on the bathmat, her DNA mixed in with the victim's blood in the diluted blood drips in the sink and bidet.

You must resort to the "luminol-enhanced footprints" but fail to ever mention they were TMB negative which even Stefanoni said indicates no blood. You also fail to mention that the same footprints had no identifying DNA which also makes them highly unlikely to be made in blood. The footprints were never compared to Laura's, Filomena's, Meredith's or Giacomo's footprints which could also have been found to be "compatible".

Again, you refuse to acknowledge that there is no proof that Amanda's DNA that became mingled with the blood in the sink or bidet was left at the time of the murder. This refusal comes despite the overwhelming scientific literature that states DNA cannot be dated and that it is perfectly normal to find mixed DNA in a shared bathroom and elsewhere. If a door handle of a store were swabbed, mixed DNA would be found. Do you think it was left at the same time? Nor will you acknowledge that the police video shows exactly how the collection of those samples could have mixed the DNA.

As for the bathmat, no one with a shred of logic would believe that Knox or Sollecito would leave the bathmat with his bloody footprint on it, much less point it out to the police. This is why you refused to answer my question addressing that fact for so long. You finally came up with some nonsense about Knox wanting to pull one over or some such ridiculous excuse.

What a crazy insane idea!.

Yes, it is a crazy insane idea. Finally recognized it, eh?

Sorry? It happened? No! You are kidding me.

No. It didn't.

 

[Planigale]

How weird there is no sign of 'Travellin' Man Rudy' at all in the small bathroom, yet we have a humunguous footprint on the bathmat belonging to Raff in Mez' blood and Amanda proven to have washed off Mez' blood from her hands and feet. (That you claim traces of Rudy were found in the small bathroom proves you to be less than frank and a stranger to the truth.)

Perhaps he has the power to make himself invisible as well. Or maybe he can hover over surfaces.

Do you argue that Guede never entered the bathroom? Guede certainly says he did. Guede says he took towels from the bathroom and put them in the victim's room, where they were found by the police. This would certainly be corroborating evidence that he was speaking the truth. You believe that Sollecito was in the bathroom and cleaned blood from himself and yet left no DNA evidence of his presence. I am not sure why you think that Sollecito could have been in the bathroom and left no DNA evidence yet the lack of DNA evidence means that despite Guede's assertion he was there he was not. Perhaps your bias means you are unable to present a logical argument?

 

[Planigale]

The other odd thing is that the one person who we know for certain had blood on his hands (because he left a bloody hand print) was Guede. He must have scrubbed the blood off his hands yet he left no DNA.

So I guess using the magic DNA lamp Knox removed the DNA left by Sollecito and Guede in the bathroom but left her own.

 

[Vixen]

Do you argue that Guede never entered the bathroom? Guede certainly says he did. Guede says he took towels from the bathroom and put them in the victim's room, where they were found by the police. This would certainly be corroborating evidence that he was speaking the truth. You believe that Sollecito was in the bathroom and cleaned blood from himself and yet left no DNA evidence of his presence. I am not sure why you think that Sollecito could have been in the bathroom and left no DNA evidence yet the lack of DNA evidence means that despite Guede's assertion he was there he was not. Perhaps your bias means you are unable to present a logical argument?

I am using the PIPs' own logic.

Even if Rudy says he went to the bathroom there is no DNA evidence of this.

Rudy, Amanda and Raff are proven compulsive liars, so it's best not to believe anything they say and just look at the facts, as found by the fact-finding court.

Or do you not believe in due process?

What do you propose to put in place of a trial at a court of law?

 

[sept79]

. . . . just look at the facts, as found by the fact-finding court.

Or do you not believe in due process?

What do you propose to put in place of a trial at a court of law?

--Why did Stefanoni lie about sample size in a "fact finding" court (Micheli)?

--Why did the "fact finding" court (Massei) ignore the "fact" that Stefanoni hid the "facts" from the defence and from the court for the first six months of the court of first instance? And, Massei's "fact finding" court ignored this connivance by the scientific police. Why?

--Why did every Italian court fail to have Stefanoni deliver the DNA EDF data to the defence? Why would a "fact finding" court function in this manner?


--------------------------------------------------


What would I propose to put in place of a trial at a court of law? How about an attempt at delivering justice instead of proceeding according to one's biases and/or the expectations of one's associates.

 

[bagels]

I am using the PIPs' own logic.

Even if Rudy says he went to the bathroom there is no DNA evidence of this.

Rudy, Amanda and Raff are proven compulsive liars, so it's best not to believe anything they say and just look at the facts, as found by the fact-finding court.

Or do you not believe in due process?

The courts found them innocent. You disagree with that. Stop pretending that you respect the court decisions.

Rudy's testimony with regards to the small bathroom is relevant because it has been a consistent detail since his initial story before he was even arrested and, more importantly, is corroborated by physical evidence at the scene. Corroborated testimony is of great value. I know for many PGP this is their first case and they don't know how evidence works, so I hope this helps.

We don't think Amanda is innocent because her DNA isn't in the bedroom. We think Amanda is innocent because that is the natural state of everyone until proven guilty.

What do you propose to put in place of a trial at a court of law?

A trial at a court of law is fine. It (eventually) freed the innocent students in this case, for example.

 

[Bill Williams]

I am using the PIPs' own logic.

Even if Rudy says he went to the bathroom there is no DNA evidence of this.

Rudy, Amanda and Raff are proven compulsive liars, so it's best not to believe anything they say and just look at the facts, as found by the fact-finding court.

Or do you not believe in due process?

What do you propose to put in place of a trial at a court of law?

Amanda was acquitted by the Bognisegna court of the defamation action brought by the Perugian police. In the only court where her status as a "liar" was tested, she won.