CCW holder killed reaching for ID.

Mumbles said:
The fact that the cop is Hispanic is, yet again, of no importance to the discussion - as I've said many times now, many black people have noted that black cops are even more brutal towards black people than white cops are. It's the massive difference in the way people are treated that's the issue - not just shootings, but stop-and-frisk, random beatings, and so forth - not the race of the police.

As to this particular situation - as we've pointed out, Castile was told to produce his license, and not to produce his gun. He, therefore, reached for his license, at which point the cop panicked, and fired wildly into the car - with one bullet hitting the seat right next to the little girl he supposedly cared about so much. Simply put, I see little reason to think that he, and none of these other cops that are on film shooting and brutalizing black people without cause, is immune to the exact same influences that every other cop is subject to, especially when the actual problem is his shooting wildly into a car where nobody had done anything wrong, and not just his subconscious bias.
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Are you insinuating that police training or everyday policing produces racist police?
 
Pterodactyl said:
Are you insinuating that police training or everyday policing produces racist police?
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I'm stating that the US culture produces some bias against black (and Native American) people, and police training - particularly "warrior policing" as taught by both departments and by people like David Grossman - hypercharges this bias rather than alleviating it.

ETA: Yet again, this also disproportionally effects people with mental illnesses - but that's not to say that white and southeast Asian people never get beaten or killed by "warrior police".
 
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Pterodactyl said:
...But the officer is (supposed to be) the professional in this situation, not the driver or CCW holder.
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The officer is indeed supposed to be professional, but it is drummed into the heads of all CCW holders that it is a huge, serious responsibility and that they must behave in very specific, careful ways when dealing with police who have pulled them over, in addition to many other situations. Mr. Castile did announce he had a firearm on him, and that's good... but he didn't mention that it was a legal, permitted firearm and he didn't wait for officer Yanez to instruct him how to proceed. That's why he died. He went straight form "I have a firearm" to reaching around his pockets. If he had simply stopped and said "and I do have a permit for it. Would you like me to retrieve that now?" or "What would you like me to do next, Officer?" he'd be alive now.

Pterodactyl said:
Is it possible that Mr. Castille's being black put Mr. Yanez on edge? Sure it's possible. But it's not a fact you could prove.
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Mr. Castile being black was one of many factors which would put any officer, or any stranger on the street walking near him, a little bit more into the "weariness zone" than if these attributes hadn't been present. Each of the following things edged him deeper into that zone:

  1. Male rather than female
  2. Able bodied rather than crippled
  3. Young rather than elderly
  4. Normal height and body mass rather than super scrawny
  5. Black rather than White or especially East Asian
  6. Smelling like weed rather than not smelling like weed
  7. In kind of a crappy car rather than a BMW or something
  8. In normal clothing rather than a suit
  9. Not wearing glasses

What is the effect of all these things? Do they each shave a fraction of a millisecond off his "leeway time" with the officer? Who knows. Maybe. But the important fact is this: no matter how many of these attributes a person possesses, and no matter how deep into the "danger zone" these attributes put them - they can still survive any police encounter by not being an idiot and by taking extra care to follow instructions, keep their hands visible, etc.

Mumbles said:
Simply put, I see little reason to think that he, and none of these other cops that are on film shooting and brutalizing black people without cause, is immune to the exact same influences that every other cop is subject to, especially when the actual problem is his shooting wildly into a car where nobody had done anything wrong, and not just his subconscious bias.
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All police in areas with blacks are going to end up being biased toward blacks over time. Regardless of the officer's race, including, as you point out, if that officer's race is black too.

Black behavior and levels of criminality among blacks will ensure racism toward blacks takes hold in any police officer, business owner, etc. over time. Only way to avoid this is to eliminate the cause but we both know that isn't going to happen.

Pterodactyl said:
Are you insinuating that police training or everyday policing produces racist police?
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Yep.
 
Skeptic Tank said:
The officer is indeed supposed to be professional, but it is drummed into the heads of all CCW holders that it is a huge, serious responsibility and that they must behave in very specific, careful ways when dealing with police who have pulled them over, in addition to many other situations.
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Not where I live. The only thing the police told me when I got my CPL was to keep the permit on me when I was carrying a concealed pistol.

Castile did nothing to justify this treatment, but got shot for it anyway. The police officer's actions were complete BS. It does society no good to have these delicate flowers with badges and quick trigger fingers walking around among non-violent persons.
 
Skeptic Tank said:
Doesn't that seem like the simpler, more elegant explanation here? You can write your 20 volume literary opus on "systemic this and systemic that" or you can just admit that Castile should've stopped moving his hands, and that Chad Whitesworth would've probably been shot under these circumstances too.
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Aaaand we're back to the civilian having to keep his cool because the trained, paid for it, LEO can't.
 
3point14 said:
Aaaand we're back to the civilian having to keep his cool because the trained, paid for it, LEO can't.
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Hey, if you want to go through life saying to yourself and to others "you know what, it's police officers' responsibility to keep their cool when we interact with them! It's on them! They're the professionals!" then that's fine.

But just know that there are a whole lot of situations and a whole lot of officers, far more than just Jeronimo Yanez, out there where people can easily get killed with that attitude.

Want to be loudmouthed and defiant with a cop? Accuse them of racism or question their motivations for pulling you over? Maybe insinuate that it's all a big money making scam, a speed trap, they get off on the power, they're stalking you... they're bored... ? Whatever? Go for it.

Want to be the sort of person who fishes around in their pockets after telling a cop you have a gun, and continues to do so even as he yells for you to stop? Go for it.

Just don't be shocked when these choices have bad, bad consequences and when the officers face no punishment whatsoever.
 
Lack of training is not the problem here .. you can have stupid people .. but they must be held responsible ! Society must not tolerate incompetence like this. That's the problem. Those cops must have serious problems and it must be well known. And if somebody can't handle situations like this on everyday basis, yes, he must be discouraged from becoming a cop. There must be some feedback .. now there's not, or it is positive one .. cops KNOW nothing rly will happen to them .. so they will shoot first and ask later.
 
3point14 said:
Aaaand we're back to the civilian having to keep his cool because the trained, paid for it, LEO can't.
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ajrSPhW.png
 
Skeptic Tank said:
Hey, if you want to go through life saying to yourself and to others "you know what, it's police officers' responsibility to keep their cool when we interact with them! It's on them! They're the professionals!" then that's fine.
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That works for me. He's getting paid to wast emy time.


But just know that there are a whole lot of situations and a whole lot of officers, far more than just Jeronimo Yanez, out there where people can easily get killed with that attitude.

Want to be loudmouthed and defiant with a cop?
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Hang on, what?? Step back just for a moment, when did I say anything about being loudmouthed?

Accuse them of racism
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When did I mention racism in reference to keeping one's cool

or question their motivations for pulling you over?
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Again, when did I say that.

Maybe insinuate that it's all a big money making scam, a speed trap, they get off on the power, they're stalking you... they're bored... ? Whatever? Go for it.
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You appear to have become a little hyperbolic. Take a chill pill and come back to me.

Want to be the sort of person who fishes around in their pockets after telling a cop you have a gun, and continues to do so even as he yells for you to stop? Go for it.
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Ah, back to reality, thank you. I just don't want to encounter the sort of cop that shoots you for doing as you're told - he was getting his ID. He was told to stop going for his gun - he wasn't going for his gun so he didn't stop.


Just don't be shocked when these choices have bad, bad consequences and when the officers face no punishment whatsoever.
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I'm not in the least shocked, really. Why would I be shocked. This appears to happen an awful lot in the USA.
 
marplots said:
If he had a legit CCW permit, he would have had some training too.
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Would that training include notifying the cop that you had a legally concealed firearm on your person?

What about producing your identification when the cop requests it?

Sounds like a recipe for a screw-up (a fatal one) if the cop can't keep his cool and panics. Not sure what the poor mope getting shot can do about that.

Die, I guess.
 
3point14 said:
Hang on, what?? Step back just for a moment, when did I say anything about being loudmouthed?
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I was expanding the conversation to make a larger point about behavior I've seen in many, many videos (I'm a LiveLeak connoisseur) where people pull all sorts of nonsense with cops. Sovereign citizens, Moorish Americans, "I don't have to provide my ID" - you. name. it. Seen it all. Very rarely works out well for them. What I've almost never seen NOT work out well for someone, on the other hand, is being respectful and compliant.

quadraginta said:
Would that training include notifying the cop that you had a legally concealed firearm on your person?

What about producing your identification when the cop requests it?

Sounds like a recipe for a screw-up (a fatal one) if the cop can't keep his cool and panics. Not sure what the poor mope getting shot can do about that.

Die, I guess.
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Yes, the training includes notifying a police officer that you're legally carrying.

It's good that Castile notified the officer about his firearm, though it's unfortunate he didn't say anything about the concealed carry permit and simply said he had a firearm. Still pretty good, but there could've easily been doubt in Janez's mind about whether it was legal or not.

The training also tends to include things about how to proceed from there. Like, being hyper-careful about your motions and making it clear to the officer that you will do whatever he asks and proceed how he commands in order to turn over the firearm to him if that's what he wants, etc.

When the encounter FIRST began, Janez asked Castile "do you have your license and registration?" and Castile leans over and gets his insurance / registration information out of the glove compartment. Good so far.

Then as Janez is looking at that, Castile decides to inform him about the firearm. Still good so far.

But here comes the crucial point of fatal mistake for Castile. He didn't realize (and he should have) that the moment he drops that revelation on the officer, that he has a firearm, that sort of resets the whole situation and he can't really just blithely continue on with previously issued commands about getting the license. Especially if the license is located in a position that could be interpreted as him going for the gun.

He needed to accept that mentioning the gun reset the situation and let the officer instruct him on what to do next. But everyone's right when they say that the mistake of NOT doing so should not equal an immediate death sentence.

Good thing it didn't. He was given at least three loud, clear commands to stop the motions he was engaging in. If, in his mind, he didn't have to stop because it was his wallet and not his gun he was reaching for... all I can say is that his fate clearly demonstrates that it was not the time for pedantry.

If he didn't realize beforehand that reaching for his wallet at that point, regardless of any previous request for his licence, could easily be interpreted as going for the gun he'd just mentioned... he damned well should've realized that was how the officer was interpreting it when the officer then made it clear that was how he was interpreting it with loud, repeated commands to stop doing so accompanied by attempts at physical restraint.

Now, if Castile's hands were motionless in that car as Janez just simply imagined them moving and Castile was simply sitting there, baffled at the officer going insane as his hands didn't move at all... then Janez should probably get the death penalty.

But somehow, between the authenticity of Janez's reaction, what Diamond Reynolds said ("he was getting his licence"), etc. --- I would say Castile was indeed fishing in his pocket area and anyone who doesn't realize how dumb that is in a situation like that... I just don't know if I can help.
 
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For some bizaare reason this story suddenly appeared on our National news last night.

I'm guessing it must have been a slow news night
 
The policemen never said 'don't move' or 'freeze' .. he said 'don't pull out the gun' .. and Castillo was not pulling out the gun .. he just didn't freeze, didn't show hands .. he did not disobey order. The policeman was not clear enough.
 
Dr.Sid said:
The policemen never said 'don't move' or 'freeze' .. he said 'don't pull out the gun' .. and Castillo was not pulling out the gun .. he just didn't freeze, didn't show hands .. he did not disobey order. The policeman was not clear enough.
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Staying alive is not so much a matter of doing as one is told, more a matter of doing what the ineffectively communicating officer thinks he's telling you to do.

It's a minefield just to stay alive.

I recon the best bet is to simply sit with hands on the steering wheel, telling the officer where everything is and having him root through your stuff to get it. Fourth amendment rights aren't worth dying over, are they? It's only the constitution.


Of course, then the officer might just think that you're taking the piss...
 
Dr.Sid said:
The policemen never said 'don't move' or 'freeze' .. he said 'don't pull out the gun' .. and Castillo was not pulling out the gun .. he just didn't freeze, didn't show hands .. he did not disobey order. The policeman was not clear enough.
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3point14 said:
Staying alive is not so much a matter of doing as one is told, more a matter of doing what the ineffectively communicating officer thinks he's telling you to do.
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I dunno, personally... I think that when an armed police officer who you've just informed about your gun starts loudly and repeatedly screaming "don't reach for it! don't pull it out!" and then even goes so far as to reach into your car and try to stop your hand from getting where it's going... it's pretty clear that he wants you to halt all hand movements and keep your hands where he can see them.
 
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