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The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 25

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They were all forced to go. Threats of disbarment, doncha know.

I wonder how big a speaking fee she commands. This is like the 5th Bar Association gathering she has spoken at.

I wonder how many of them believe that Amanda is innocent?
 
Welcome back

Thanks. Good to be back. I'm so happy to see Amanda doing well. I guess she's been doing some traveling. I read her latest column about an excursion to California. She seems less and less affected by her ordeal in Italy.
 
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I wonder how big a speaking fee she commands. This is like the 5th Bar Association gathering she has spoken at.

I wonder how many of them believe that Amanda is innocent?

That depends on whether they got their information from the court transcripts and science or TJMK.
 
You might ask Mach. I was just clarifying exactly what Quintavalle said by providing his testimony. But I understand accuracy isn't for everyone.

By the way, still waiting for that FORENSIC EVIDENCE regarding Knox washing her hands. Just like I'm still waiting for Mach to produce that "abundant scientific literature" that TMB negative results don't mean blood
isn't present. But I'm beginning to think neither of you is going to present said evidence.

You don't understand evidence. You seem to believe you just need to dream up an alternative explanation for it and that is an acceptable method of discourse.

Whom should we believe: the entire Rome Scientific (Forensic) Police, with dozens of highly qualified, highly experienced and highly trained objective personnel, or an Amanda Knox fan?
 
Great to see. Another speaking engagement for Amanda. This time for 1,250 lawyers at the Kentucky Bar Association convention.

Way to go Amanda!

Has either Amanda or Raff ever done an honest day's work in their lives?

Or do they hope to get rich off the back of crime?

You have heard that Raff is begging Mignini to settle with him in the book calunnia ongoing proceedings?

So he admits he's fibbed about Mignini framing him and Knox.
 
I wonder how big a speaking fee she commands. This is like the 5th Bar Association gathering she has spoken at.

I wonder how many of them believe that Amanda is innocent?

When will she get a job instead of panhandling?

It is an established fact that police did not interrogate her for 53 hours, so why does she continue to peddle blatant lies?

She is not 'wrongfully convicted' and nor is she 'exonerated'.

I doubt many sharp lawyers are fooled for a minute. They are there for CPD points and to get course credits if students.

Questions will be carefully vetted. Anyone mentioning Patrick will be ejected.
 
There is a lot of scientific research on eyewitness testimony and identification. It is abundantly clear that testimony given a year later after all the information in the papers is intrinsically unreliable. This is a scientific fact. People do not have reliable memories for a transient contact of no significance at the time a year later. In the UK the judge has to caution jurors about the unreliability of eyewitness identification. This is why great care is taken that identification is done with e.g. photographic line ups where witnesses are warned the suspect may not be present in the line up. The most unreliable identification is the one carried out here where the witness is asked (to paraphrase) "Is the guilty person the accused?" . Eye witness testimony must be obtained as soon as possible, it must be obtained in a neutral fashion, using open ended questions, and witnesses must be warned not to discuss their testimony with anyone prior to appearing in court. Quintavale's testimony would be laughed out of a court with knowledge of the science of eyewitness identification.

Law courts have been functioning on witness statements for hundreds of years. Journalists rely on them.

A knowledgeable person knows that an identification from an ID parade is never accepted as definitive evidence on its own.
 
Has either Amanda or Raff ever done an honest day's work in their lives?

Or do they hope to get rich off the back of crime?

You have heard that Raff is begging Mignini to settle with him in the book calunnia ongoing proceedings?

So he admits he's fibbed about Mignini framing him and Knox.

Framing is exactly what Vixen's idol Mignini did to Amanda and Raffaele.
 
Law courts have been functioning on witness statements for hundreds of years. Journalists rely on them.

A knowledgeable person knows that an identification from an ID parade is never accepted as definitive evidence on its own.

Agreed. I fully incorporate the witness statements of Quintavalle and Curatolo into my reconstruction of the crime.

Both were interviewed by the police within days of the crime, like this:

Police: *while holding up picture of Amanda Knox* Do you recognize this woman?
Quintavalle: yes I know her, she has come in with Raffaele a couple times
Police: we are investigating her involvement in the recent murder, and looking into whether she was in one of these shops buying bleach, specifically in the days immediately prior or just after the murder. Do you recall her as a customer then?
Quintavalle: Nope, sure don't my good man
Police: Thank you for your cooperation


With Curatolo it was similar:

Police: Did any of you bums see or notice anything suspicious last night, especially around the time a young girl was murdered?
Curatolo: Sure didn't, I don't know a thing, especially about any girl


You can rest assured I fully incorporated both these witness statements into my understanding of the crime.
 
When will she get a job instead of panhandling?

It is an established fact that police did not interrogate her for 53 hours, so why does she continue to peddle blatant lies?

She is not 'wrongfully convicted' and nor is she 'exonerated'.

I doubt many sharp lawyers are fooled for a minute. They are there for CPD points and to get course credits if students.

Questions will be carefully vetted. Anyone mentioning Patrick will be ejected.

That is so funny. I agree that the lawyers aren't fooled for a minute. This is why Amanda is being paid by lawyers. They aren't a bunch of wannabe idiot Internet trolls.

Lawyers are smarter than the collection of crazed lunatics at PMF AND TJMK.
Lawyers can read and logically think.
They KNOW that a negative TMB test disqualifies a positive luminol reaction.
They KNOW that DNA contamination is real.
They KNOW that finding the DNA of a suspect in their own home is irrelevant.
They KNOW there is a real danger of coerced false or misleading statements,
They KNOW that the legal system is fallible and makes mistakes.

Amanda is articulate with a great story about the human effects of the legal system. It's a story that smart people are willing to pay thousands of dollars to hear. More power to Amanda. She deserves every penny.
 
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The problem is you are illogical here.

Take the Luminol prints. You cannot deny that there is a possibility that a Luminol positive print may be due to blood or may be due to an alternative (false positive) mechanism. The question is how likely are the alternatives? This is the 'reliability' of the test. To deny the possibility of an alternative is to deny reality.

The next step is to assess the likelihood that the stains are due to blood or an alternative mechanism.

You (Machiavelli) are at least consistent with your view. You regard a Luminol positive print as most likely attributable to blood even if TMB negative; therefore you view the prints from Sollecito's car and flat as being attributable to blood.

I would argue there is a narrow spectrum that allows a positive Luminol result and a negative TMB. The lower limit for TMB (depending on the reference), is 1:10,000 dilution, for Luminol 1:100,000; the former equivalent to one drop of blood in a litre of water, not enough to be visibly blood stained. This is possible. However, the properties of blood suspensions make this unlikely. Particles like blood cells tend to concentrate at the edge of a drop due to surface tension. So you do not get even distribution of blood across a print as it dries. You get a concentration at the edge of a print. This is not seen here. It would seem unlikely that the same critical concentration that delivered a positive Luminol but negative TMB test was found not only in all the prints found at the second visit in the flat, but also the exact same concentration of blood in Sollecito's car and flat. It is excessively unlikely the same concentration was evenly distributed in all of these prints in multiple different locations.

As a second line of argument even if you believe the prints in the hall are made by Knox in dilute blood there is an entirely innocent explanation; that Knox contaminated here feet with highly dilute blood from the shower (note that this concentration would not be visibly bloody), she reported having the next day. So it is not only unlikely that the prints were attributable to blood, but there is an entirely innocent explanation. This evidence is equally evidence supporting Knox's description of her actions the morning after the murder, supporting her testimony. It is as much evidence for innocence as guilt. It has no informational value.

I'm sorry, but I reject both these argumentations as illogical or nonsensical.
On your first line of argumentation about an "alternative" substance I can see there are two aspects.
First, one problem is that there is always a logical fallacy on the part of those who argue about possibilityo of "alternative substance" and use negative TMB test as an argument to bolster that theory.
You just omit the implication from the fact that no substance is known that has the property of reacting to luminol but not to TMB, and that the two tests respond to the same compounds. But the logical consequence of this are of fundamental importance.
In relation to this, you also apparently fail to realize that "non-blood" is a non-alternative, "non-blood" is not a substanc, it's a non hypothesis, you fail to realize how it is necessary to formulize an alternative in positive terms, in order to build a logical possibility for doubt - and also to make any kind of assessment about how this alternative is, documented, plausible or realistic.

On a second level, you are still completely focused on the a chemical nature of the stain, while not considering the rest of its other properties, so underestimating the information that lies in features different from what can be found out through chemical analysis.
You underestimate the unusual nature of the stain, importance of the analogy of their features with the bathmat stain (and the strangeness of the bathmat stains itself, btw), their pattern, their distribution, the set of features. And you also do not cross this information with details such as the fact that one of putative Guede's shoeprints has been washed by half and another one has disappeared completely, and that there are both luminol stains and blood stains that yield mixed DNAs from both Knox and Kercher.
You try to build a reasoning that is analitic about the possibility of chemical analisys of a substance, you follow logical steps walking along in a line, and when you don't find confirmation you stop; but you walk only that line, you don't draw deductions from other cross-path, and you build an analysis from one detail, one property, but that's only analitical, it's only bottom-up, there is no top-down thinking the other way from different sets of information.

Now, on the second argument I radically disagree: I don't think it is realistic to beieve that the luminol prints could derive from "contaminating" one's feet with the bathmat carpet. I don't believe it's physically possible to produce that kind of luminol footprint shapes that way. You can produce that prints only if your feet were completely immersed in a uniform dilution of substance. That is, a dilution of the same kind of the dilution which produced the bathmat prints at their origin.
 
In relation to this, you also apparently fail to realize that "non-blood" is a non-alternative, "non-blood" is not a substanc, it's a non hypothesis, you fail to realize how it is necessary to formulize an alternative in positive terms, in order to build a logical possibility for doubt.

This is your problem. Non blood is what luminol stains are until proven otherwise. The prosecution attempted to prove otherwise (TMB, DNA) and failed on both counts. The defense didn't have to lift a finger. Didn't have to prove a thing.

If you don't like it, feel free to go champion the change in forensic science and courts around the world. No sense being here on this little corner of the internet for crime hobbyists.
 
This is your problem. Non blood is what luminol stains are until proven otherwise. The prosecution attempted to prove otherwise (TMB, DNA) and failed on both counts. The defense didn't have to lift a finger. Didn't have to prove a thing.

If you don't like it, feel free to go champion the change in forensic science and courts around the world. No sense being here on this little corner of the internet for crime hobbyists.

I always love it when non-experts pretend that they understand things better than world class experts. Evolution is a myth, DNA contamination is a myth, radiometric dating is flawed, TMB results are irrelevant.

Every time Joe Schmoe opens his mouth thinking they are smarter than professionals that put in years of study I want to puke.
 
Non blood is what luminol stains are until proven otherwise. The prosecution attempted to prove otherwise (TMB, DNA) and failed on both counts. The defense didn't have to lift a finger. Didn't have to prove a thing.

If you don't like it, feel free to go champion the change in forensic science and courts around the world. No sense being here on this little corner of the internet for crime hobbyists.


Why is this being contested?
 
I was looking for information on the general admissibility of luminol in US courts and found a couple examples.

Here's one:

"Supreme Court of Arkansas
Opinion delivered September 25, 1995
1.
CRIMINAL LAW — EVIDENCE — ADMISSIBILITY OF LUMINOL TESTS
GENERALLY. —
Luminol test results indicating the presence of blood
are inadmissible without follow-up tests confirming the presence of human blood related to the crime; because luminol testing can
return false positive results by reacting with substances other than
human blood, and because luminol testing is not time-specific,
luminol test results are not relevant per se, and their admission
without additional factors that relate that evidence to the crime
would confuse a jury.
"

But, to be fair to Mach, this is from 1995 and one state, so let's look at another example:

"
IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF APPEAL OF THE STATE OF FLORIDA 2005
...
Relevancy [of luminol stains] determinations are within the trial court’s discretion, Howard v. State, 616 So. 2d 484 (Fla. 1st DCA 1993), and depend on the facts.
Here, there was evidence that the victim had been shot by appellant in appellant’s home and that there had been much blood. There was additional evidence that the surfaces on which the blood would have spattered were removed or cleaned within a day or two of the victim’s disappearance.
If there had been no such [corroborating] evidence, these tests might not have been relevant, or their relevancy might have been outweighed by the danger of unfair prejudice, confusion, or misleading the jury.
"

Again to be fair to Mach, he sees the luminol in the context of a wider cleaning supported by additional corroborating evidence. The reality of the case however, is there was no cleaning, and no evidence to support a cleaning. In fact, the killer was quite messy and left blood and prints all over the apartment, none of which showed any signs of being cleaned. There were no relevant cleaning materials found at the crime scene, nor witness reports of cleanups or cleaner smells etc.

So it seems to be the conclusion is the luminol evidence can't be shown to be relevant to the crime, and the prosecutions chance to prove relevance with additional testing, failed, and actually favored the defense. There's really not much more to the luminol evidence.

I think it's useless for Mach and Vixen and any other PGP to talk about the forensic evidence, because it isn't the core of the case to them. They think Amanda is guilty because she looks and acts guilty. They should leave it at that, since is it the core of how they feel anyway, and it doesn't muddy the discussion with the false impression that this is a case about forensics.
 
You don't understand evidence. You seem to believe you just need to dream up an alternative explanation for it and that is an acceptable method of discourse.

Whom should we believe: the entire Rome Scientific (Forensic) Police, with dozens of highly qualified, highly experienced and highly trained objective personnel, or an Amanda Knox fan?

I understand it just fine and so did the Supreme Court when they acquitted them for not having committed the crime. That they also understood the evidence to be extremely flawed ...including that of all the "highly qualified, highly experienced and highly trained objective personnel" of the Forensic police...is reflected in this statement from the SC:

Given the above-mentioned considerations, it is evident that a new trial would be useless, thus the verdict of annulment without a new trial, in accordance with Article 620 letter I) of the Italian Code of Criminal Procedure, thus applying a sentence of not guilty which would also have been reached by any new referral judge, in accordance with the principles of law set out in this judgment.

In other words, any judge hearing the same evidence could only reach the same verdict: not guilty.
 
When will she get a job instead of panhandling?

It is an established fact that police did not interrogate her for 53 hours, so why does she continue to peddle blatant lies?

She is not 'wrongfully convicted' and nor is she 'exonerated'.

I doubt many sharp lawyers are fooled for a minute. They are there for CPD points and to get course credits if students.

Questions will be carefully vetted. Anyone mentioning Patrick will be ejected.

1) Cite evidence on the hours of interrogation which makes it an "established fact".

2) According to the Supreme Court of Italy she was indeed "wrongfully convicted" as, per their statement, any judge would acquit on the evidence presented. When a person is convicted and then acquitted, their conviction was a "wrongful conviction". "Exonerated", "for not having committed the crime", "acquitted", "not guilty"....

3) Your "doubts" are irrelevant as is your entirely unsupported by any evidence conjecture concerning why they are there.

4) Equally irrelevant is your unsupported by evidence conjecture that any questions will be vetted and that (and this is my favorite for its sheer lunacy) any mention of Lumumba will get someone ejected.

Still having trouble finding the forensic evidence that proves Knox washed her hands of Meredith's blood? Let me make it easy for you; there isn't any which is why you have failed to present it.
 
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4) Equally irrelevant is your unsupported by evidence conjecture that any questions will be vetted and that (and this is my favorite for its sheer lunacy) any mention of Lumumba will get someone ejected.

It doesn't even matter if they are anyway, since Amanda took the stand in her defense during the trial and was fully cross-examined by the prosecution. So she was willing to answer tough questions from a hostile source fully informed of the facts, trying to use her answers to lock her up in jail. In other words, Amanda has already been on the hot seat, and come out unscathed. The PGP are pathetic when they bring this angle up.
 
From the 2010 Knox Appeal, the hours of interrogation were documented by the defense. Translated from the original Italian:

Amanda Knox has been under investigation and investigative activities between 2 and 6
November 2007, until the moment of the stop, provided summary information and
Answering Questions from A.G. as follows:

between 2 and 6 November 2007, until the time of detention, provided summary information and answered
November 2, 2007, 15:30 FRIDAY ': total hours ............ .. 12,00
Minutes of summary information of Knox, without closing. Witnesses up at 3:00 am on November 3, 2007
November 3, 2007, 14.45 hours Saturday Total .................. 8.00
Minutes of summary information of Knox, without closing. Witnesses show up at 22.00.
November 4, 2007, at 14:45 Sunday: ............ hours total. 12,00
Minutes of summary information of Knox, and access to the house on Via della Pergola from 14.45 at 21. Phone call Amanda's aunt says five hours of questioning at the police station
5/6 November 2007, at 01:45 MONDAY '/ TUESDAY': total hours ...... ..5,00
Minutes of summary information of Knox begin at 22.00 on 5 November 2009.
November 6, 2007, 05:45 hours TUESDAY ': total hours .................. .3,45
Minutes of "spontaneous declarations" of Knox with subsequent brief memorial. From 1.45 to 5.45 hours to 14.00 hours and Memorial.

In 5 days the Knox was heard for a total of about 53.45 h.
 
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