Brexit: Now What? Part III

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MikeG said:
It was a leading question. It gave me 2 choices, neither of which were anything like the point I was making. And just to put the lie to your claim it was just a question and that you weren't putting words in my mouth:
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I really didn't ask for a yes or no answer, which would have made the above accurate. I just really did wonder, given the conversation, how well informed you though voters were* when they cast their votes. (My answer - very poorly. Yours may differ.)



You went and did it again.
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I think you may see verbal traps where none exist. I think it may be a byproduct of hanging out here.






*Either by dint of poor journalism or their own research or lack of it.
 
3point14 said:
.........I just really did wonder, given the conversation, how well informed you though voters were* when they cast their votes. (My answer - very poorly. Yours may differ.)........
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A point which might be interesting to you, but was nothing whatever to do with what I was talking about.
 
I was on holiday last week with two people who voted to leave. One admitted to me in so many words that she believed what she read/saw on TV and made no attempt whatsoever to verify any of it before voting. The other has been mindlessly parroting the standard Euro myths (including the one about the EU banning bendy bananas) for decades,
 
Pixel42 said:
I was on holiday last week with two people who voted to leave. One admitted to me in so many words that she believed what she read/saw on TV and made no attempt whatsoever to verify any of it before voting. The other has been mindlessly parroting the standard Euro myths (including the one about the EU banning bendy bananas) for decades,
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I know two ex colleagues (we now work for different companies in the same site) who voted for Leave.

Both are Biblical literalists who also doubt Global Warming and Evolution, and also think that Trump is wonderful. They are not being ironic.

ETA: There was also Gove's "we've had enough of experts"

And the infamous £350-Million per week

The Leave campaign did lie worse than the remain campaign.
 
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You know that bit in the Discworld novels where Vimes first learns about democracy and is quite taken with it, until it dawns on him that not only would he have a vote but so would Nobby Nobbs, whereupon he rapidly goes off the idea?

That was me last week. :D
 
Pixel42 said:
I was on holiday last week with two people who voted to leave. One admitted to me in so many words that she believed what she read/saw on TV and made no attempt whatsoever to verify any of it before voting. The other has been mindlessly parroting the standard Euro myths (including the one about the EU banning bendy bananas) for decades,
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Please don't tell me you extrapolated from that sample of two to every single voter who voted leave and came up with this as a result:

Pixel42 said:
.......People have a responsibility to verify that the information they are basing such a momentous decision on is accurate. They did not. They swallowed all those press stories whole, because they pandered to their prejudices.
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If I can name 3 people who voted leave but were extremely well informed of all the salient facts, and didn't read any newspapers, will it cancel out your so-called argument?
 
jimbob said:
I know two ex colleagues (we now work for different companies in the same site) who voted for Leave.

Both are Biblical literalists who also doubt Global Warming and Evolution, and also think that Trump is wonderful. They are not being ironic.........
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Don't do this nonsense. Honest to goodness, we can do better than this here. This is supposed to be a place for critical thinkers, where you might expect a reasonable standard of reasoned argument, and instead we've got consecutive posters going "I know two people.........."

I know at least 20 farmers who all voted Leave because of the stupidities, as they see it, of the CAP. Does that trump your story?
 
Of course I don't think all leave voters have exactly the same motivation as those two, I'm sorry my annoyance led me to give that impression. I do think that they are representative of a good percentage of leave voters, though. It wouldn't have needed many of them to have taken the time to properly research where their own best interests lay for the vote to have gone the other way.
 
MikeG said:
Don't do this nonsense. Honest to goodness, we can do better than this here. This is supposed to be a place for critical thinkers, where you might expect a reasonable standard of reasoned argument, and instead we've got consecutive posters going "I know two people.........."

I know at least 20 farmers who all voted Leave because of the stupidities, as they see it, of the CAP. Does that trump your story?
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I know a handful of farmers, although my brother works with them. These are now realising that Leave is not in their interests.

So I am not sure they were voting with as full an amount of information as they should, unless the farmers you know are different from the English hill farmers I know or Welsh farmers that my brother works with (there are different setups in England and Wales).

Pixel42 said:
Of course I don't think all leave voters have exactly the same motivation as those two, I'm sorry my annoyance led me to give that impression. I do think that they are representative of a good percentage of leave voters, though. It wouldn't have needed many of them to have taken the time to properly research where their own best interests lay for the vote to have gone the other way.
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I was about to mention that. There are lots of demographics, I would have thought that it might have been rational for people in the fishing industry to vote leave, but according to my brother's colleagues in the fisheries departments, they are also likely to suffer from leaving the EU.
 
Pixel42 said:
I was on holiday last week with two people who voted to leave. One admitted to me in so many words that she believed what she read/saw on TV and made no attempt whatsoever to verify any of it before voting. The other has been mindlessly parroting the standard Euro myths (including the one about the EU banning bendy bananas) for decades,
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Look on the bright side: we now have 'wonky vegetables' on sale at bargain prices.
 
jimbob said:
I know a handful of farmers, although my brother works with them. These are now realising that Leave is not in their interests.

So I am not sure they were voting with as full an amount of information as they should, unless the farmers you know are different from the English hill farmers I know or Welsh farmers that my brother works with (there are different setups in England and Wales)...........
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Oh dear oh dear........

So if you didn't vote remain you got it wrong, were uninformed, didn't have the full information, didn't understand something. Really? That's what we're reduced to?

East Anglian grain farmers have virtually nothing in common with hill farmers.
 
Aepervius said:
It isnt anout shoving and pushing, this is about this making sense. You do not want to have essential securities, financial institution, outside the eu and not under eu law. This is even addressed a few paragraph in, see after "justified the decision" note that it is only required to be in the euroblock and that is it.

Frankly i expect all sort of similar decision, to have private and public major/important entities to be required ti be in the euroblock and/or undr eu law and jurisdiction.

UK is leaving, remember ? You dont expect such major stuff vital to the EU to stay in UK out of reach of EU jurisdiction, right ?
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The UK made their decision and thus the EU indeed has the right to return clearing house and other institutions if applicable.

My point is about the game plan the EU is adopting. I find it fascinating. Mixed messages are coming out of the EU as UK's heavily weakened May and Co. try to formulate their position to start talks next Monday.
 
Aepervius said:
It isnt anout shoving and pushing, this is about this making sense. You do not want to have essential securities, financial institution, outside the eu and not under eu law..........
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Except that London is also the major centre for dollar clearing, too, and outside the aegis of the US authorities. I think the EU might find this is a little bit more complicated than they think.
 
MikeG said:
Oh dear oh dear........

So if you didn't vote remain you got it wrong, were uninformed, didn't have the full information, didn't understand something. Really? That's what we're reduced to?

East Anglian grain farmers have virtually nothing in common with hill farmers.
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That's not what I said.

Farmers, both large and small in Wales tended to vote leave and are now realising that was not in their interest. The hill farmers in England (around my area at least) did likewise.

I did say that voting to leave was rational in some areas. Most of the leave voters tended to be low-information voters though.
 
MikeG said:
Except that London is also the major centre for dollar clearing, too, and outside the aegis of the US authorities. I think the EU might find this is a little bit more complicated than they think.
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Are not the rules for Dollar clearing intertwined with the rules of Euro clearing?

If so - Who benefits from the move? US access to EU markets directly, or US access to the EU market via another legal entity whose whim they have to factor into their overall strategy.

Probably not as complicated as you propose.
 
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MikeG said:
So if you didn't vote remain you got it wrong, were uninformed, didn't have the full information, didn't understand something. Really? That's what we're reduced to?
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Anyone that relied on the media to inform them was uninformed.

I still haven't found one positive thing about the UK leaving the EU. If that's the case, and I challenge you to find something positive, and what was termed 'project fear' is proving to be accurate then yes, people that voted to leave voted on the back of poor or inco0mplete information.
 
Darat said:
Because we are a democratic nation and follow the rule of law.
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What law would that be? It was an advisory referendum. Sweden has had two referendums that they have ignored, as they realised acting upon them would have made things worse.

It is the political pressure that will make this inevitable, even though we will be worse off. Utter madness.
 
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