UK General Election

[Craig B]

I really don't know why this is proving so difficult for people to grasp. In a two horse race, the winner is the horse that comes first, not the one which comes second. Never mind that last time the race was run the winning distance was greater.

That is true, but the result is still being called a catastrophe for May, and you must be puzzled by that. Here is the reason. May HAD a majority. May HAD a three year mandate still to run. She volunteered to run the race, and in doing so she lost these possessions. I will agree unhesitatingly that she won the election, if you will in return agree that the result was also a catastrophe. Pyrrhus of Epirus^WP won his battles.

 

[Pixel42]

Someone on HIGNFY (probably Ian Hislop) described it as Theresa May's humiliating victory.

 

[MikeG]

That is true, but the result is still being called a catastrophe for May, and you must be puzzled by that............... I will agree unhesitatingly that she won the election, if you will in return agree that the result was also a catastrophe. Pyrrhus of Epirus^WP won his battles.

Absolutely. A complete disaster. Catastrophic. I'm not in the least puzzled by it being categorised thus, because that is what it was. However, it is not a loss, and Labour didn't win. Labour lost less badly than they did last time, that's all. I mentioned Pyrrhus in my first post-result post, I believe, and this really was the ultimate pyhhric victory........she won, but is terminally weakened.

 

[McHrozni]

That is true, but the result is still being called a catastrophe for May, and you must be puzzled by that. Here is the reason. May HAD a majority. May HAD a three year mandate still to run. She volunteered to run the race, and in doing so she lost these possessions. I will agree unhesitatingly that she won the election, if you will in return agree that the result was also a catastrophe. Pyrrhus of Epirus^WP won his battles.

We should break down this into two contests, the election and the power grab she attempted. She won the election but lost the power grab. The election was nothing more than a tool to accomplish the power grab, so her narrow victory there is immaterial.

McHrozni

 

[MikeG]

We should break down this into two contests, the election and the power grab........i

You're just playing a semantic game. Every election is an attempted power grab, by everyone involved. Corbyn was attempting a power grab, too, in exactly the same way as May was.

 

[McHrozni]

You're just playing a semantic game. Every election is an attempted power grab, by everyone involved. Corbyn was attempting a power grab, too, in exactly the same way as May was.

Calling an early election three years before a regular election when polls show the electorate is expected to break for you 2:1 is a tad different from running in a regularly scheduled election or agreeing to hold an election when the polls show the electorate is expected to break 2:1 against you.

McHrozni

 

[MikeG]

Indeed, but that isn't what you said. You're making a false distinction.

 

[Craig B]

You're just playing a semantic game. Every election is an attempted power grab, by everyone involved. Corbyn was attempting a power grab, too, in exactly the same way as May was.

But May already held power. So she could either hold what she had, or end up with less than she had, which is what happened.

 

[McHrozni]

Indeed, but that isn't what you said. You're making a false distinction.

I don't see it that way. Her call for an early election was a despicable attempt to grab far more power than anyone should have in a democracy. This failed in all of its' glory.

It is not wrong to call every election an attempt to grab power, but doing so doesn't do justice to the term.

McHrozni

 

[Craig B]

Oh dear.

 

[The Don]

Oh dear.

Doesn't matter what happened in the past because the Conservatives and the DUP (a.k.a. the Protestant Taliban) are now BFFs and even if they continue to spout anti-LBGT rhetoric it will be excused as "only one person's view" or representing "part of a broad spectrum of views".

The Conservative Party's willingness to form an alliance with a group like this demonstrates that Cameron's attempt to move the Conservatives back to the centre is well and truly over and that being too right wing (like UKIP) is only an issue to the Conservatives if you're in a position to nick votes from them

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

That is true, but the result is still being called a catastrophe for May, and you must be puzzled by that. Here is the reason. May HAD a majority. May HAD a three year mandate still to run. She volunteered to run the race, and in doing so she lost these possessions. I will agree unhesitatingly that she won the election, if you will in return agree that the result was also a catastrophe. Pyrrhus of Epirus^WP won his battles.

Compare it to a gambler at a casino who is a hundred grand up on the night but is greedy for a million. They bet all but ten dollars on red and it comes up black. Sure they walk away winners but only someone with a very warped view of the world is going to call them that.

 

[The Don]

PWD?

Frankly, that's odious garbage, and you should be utterly ashamed of yourself. Please just remind us all which party introduced gay marriage. Which party has been led by a woman....nay, produced two female PMs? And you'll be able to point to a single racist thing anywhere in the last 7 years, naturally, as you're prepared to make allegations of racism. Pathetic, The Don. Pathetic.

...and yet Theresa has....

• Re-introduced the Board of Trade - throwback to the days of Empire
• Talked about tight immigration controls
• Set her sights on a diamond-hard Brexit where the UK will be "free" of the ECHR
• Formed an alliance with the DUP, a party which is vehemently anti-LBGT
• Has pandered to the racists and xenophobes who voted UKIP (and who formed the core of those who voted Leave)
• Is removing the safety net for the disabled

David Cameron did indeed lead a more socially progressive version of the Conservative party. IMO he was the Conservative version of Tony Blair, an atypical leader from one wing of the party chosen to secure the centre of UK politics. Like Tony Blair, Cameron is long gone and like Jeremy Corbyn, Theresa May is appealing to the party's core who do seem to long for the 1950s.

YMMV of course.


edited to add.....

Of course Theresa is also following in the well worn footsteps of Margaret Thatcher but whereas Baroness Thatcher was happy just to be "Maggie Thatcher, milk snatcher", Theresa May is taking away free school lunches for infants and is proposing to replace it with a hopelessly ill-thought through and underfunded breakfast scheme which will:

• Require teachers, caterers and support staff to work longer hours for the same pay
• Remove a full lunch and "replace" it with a snack-style breakfast
• Allow 7p per child per day for breakfast

 

[The Don]

I agree with Mike G. This is just lazy caricature.

Look at the core of the Conservative Party and the newspapers that reflect the views of that core, the Daily Mail and the Daily Express and you may think it's a lazy caricature, but that doesn't mean it's inaccurate.

 

[NWO Sentryman]

...and yet Theresa has....

• Re-introduced the Board of Trade - throwback to the days of Empire
• Talked about tight immigration controls
• Set her sights on a diamond-hard Brexit where the UK will be "free" of the ECHR
• Formed an alliance with the DUP, a party which is vehemently anti-LBGT
• Has pandered to the racists and xenophobes who voted UKIP (and who formed the core of those who voted Leave)
• Is removing the safety net for the disabled

David Cameron did indeed lead a more socially progressive version of the Conservative party. IMO he was the Conservative version of Tony Blair, an atypical leader from one wing of the party chosen to secure the centre of UK politics. Like Tony Blair, Cameron is long gone and like Jeremy Corbyn, Theresa May is appealing to the party's core who do seem to long for the 1950s.

YMMV of course.

"socially progressive" doesn't mean much when lgbt people end up homeless. It's just a nice paintjob for a really nasty party. as for centrism, I don't ever want to see that sort of spineless capitulation again (all the while acting as though MUH SURE START! absolves the Iraq War)

 

[MikeG]

...and yet Theresa has....

• Re-introduced the Board of Trade - throwback to the days of Empire
• Talked about tight immigration controls
• Set her sights on a diamond-hard Brexit where the UK will be "free" of the ECHR
• Formed an alliance with the DUP, a party which is vehemently anti-LBGT
• Has pandered to the racists and xenophobes who voted UKIP (and who formed the core of those who voted Leave)
• Is removing the safety net for the disabled

David Cameron did indeed lead a more socially progressive version of the Conservative party. IMO he was the Conservative version of Tony Blair, an atypical leader from one wing of the party chosen to secure the centre of UK politics. Like Tony Blair, Cameron is long gone and like Jeremy Corbyn, Theresa May is appealing to the party's core who do seem to long for the 1950s.

YMMV of course.


edited to add.....

Of course Theresa is also following in the well worn footsteps of Margaret Thatcher but whereas Baroness Thatcher was happy just to be "Maggie Thatcher, milk snatcher", Theresa May is taking away free school lunches for infants and is proposing to replace it with a hopelessly ill-thought through and underfunded breakfast scheme which will:

• Require teachers, caterers and support staff to work longer hours for the same pay
• Remove a full lunch and "replace" it with a snack-style breakfast
• Allow 7p per child per day for breakfast

So you're defending your nauseating comments. OK then <snip>

Edited by jsfisher: 

Edited for compliance with Rule 12 of the Membership Agreement.

 

[The Don]

So you're defending your nauseating comments. OK then <snip>

Edited by jsfisher: 

Moderated content redacted.

Are they inaccurate ?

Is the Conservative Party's support for LBGT rights a recent thing introduced by Cameron (and now seemingly rejected my May given her eagerness to get in bed with the DUP) ? Compare that to Labour and the LibDems who have a long history of fighting for the rights of LBGT.

Cameron was IMO an exception. The true "heart" of the Conservative Party and its core support is more accurately reflected by Clause 28. IMO the Daily Mail and Daily Express are aimed squarely at the heart of the Conservative Party and whilst they are tolerant of "celebrity gays", their attitude to LBGT rights in general stinks.

 

[The Don]

Further to this bit......

The Conservatives want to keep wogs out ......

A lot of the the rhetoric around Brexit and immigration control relates to "keeping control of our borders" but I cannot recall too many people on the right (whether they be politicians, pundits or members of the public) complaining about the numbers of Scandinavians, Australians, New Zealanders or (white) South Africans coming over in "swarms".

Instead the concerns seem to relate to the number of Muslims (and other brown or black skinned people) or Eastern Europeans (and their funny accents, strange ways and odd dietary requirements which are appearing in our supermarkets) coming to the UK.

Mrs Don is a white American and has had a number of conversations where people are complaining about the number of immigrants in the UK. When she reminds the speaker that she is herself an immigrant, she has been repeatedly assured that they weren't talking about her kind of immigrant

 

[3point14]

If you missed the result of election, and simultaneously associate Corbyn with hope, then let me remind you of a couple of things. Labour lost. They were thoroughly beaten.

Secondly, generating hope by bribing people is pathetic. At least when Thatcher did it she had the good grace to bribe the electorate with their own money. Corbyn has bribed the electorate with their own children's money.

Almost every government,everywhere is spending the money of their electorate's children, aren't they? Isn't that how deficit spending works?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Doesn't matter what happened in the past because the Conservatives and the DUP (a.k.a. the Protestant Taliban) are now BFFs and even if they continue to spout anti-LBGT rhetoric it will be excused as "only one person's view" or representing "part of a broad spectrum of views".

The Conservative Party's willingness to form an alliance with a group like this demonstrates that Cameron's attempt to move the Conservatives back to the centre is well and truly over and that being too right wing (like UKIP) is only an issue to the Conservatives if you're in a position to nick votes from them

Are you starting to come round to the idea that Theresa May is not a fluffy little centrist as she's been painted but actually is either a nasty little piece of work or at least quite happy to play along with being one if it helps her win a few votes?