Cont: Proof of Immortality, V for Very long discussion

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Hokulele,
- I won't be summarizing your side; the person representing your side will summarize your side. Anyone can comment.
- On the map, I'll summarize my own side.
No that is not true. We have seen right on this sight exactly how that pans out.

It is not a pretty picture. Last time you tried this right here we had buckets of people outright stating to you that you did NOT have their permission to use their words on your site.

Everyone was aghast at the level of deception. If you want links on this very site, I can provide them. Did you believe that everyone would conveniently forget how it played out before? Do you not recall the number of people who expressly stated that you had no permission to represent their posts on your website? Have you forgotten why you had that reaction?

I could ask if you are unaware that all of that scurrilous behaviour is recorded, but I am certain that you are aware that it is and are seeking to avoid it at all costs. That appears to me to be a fools errand since it is all recorded right here. And you appear to have forgotten that web archives exist.
 
Why are we letting Jabba drag the thread from "I prove immortality using Bayes theorem" to "I can win a beauty contest if it's on my ground under my rules?"

Why is the ISF hosting this farrago?
 
I couldn't agree more.

All around me I see people whose sole criterion for believing something is whether or not they want it to be true. Compelling evidence and arguments against the belief are wilfully ignored, anything that can be adduced in its favour - even if it has to be dishonestly cherry picked and misinterpreted to do so - is eagerly seized on and embraced.

I use to think the internet posters who "debated" in this way (of whom you have long been the quintessential exemplar, Jabba) represented only a tiny percentage of an otherwise fairly rational populace. But in same few years in which you have been wasting everybody's time on this thread, this way of "debating" appears to have become the norm. You must be so pleased.
Pixel,
- We humans seem to accept that effective public debate is impossible...
- I say that because,
1. Human survival may depend upon such a possibility.
2. The Internet should allow us to see if anyone is researching the possibility.
3. And using the Internet, I haven't been able to find any such efforts.

- Hope this isn't too far off topic...
 
Pixel,
- We humans seem to accept that effective public debate is impossible...
- I say that because,
1. Human survival may depend upon such a possibility.
2. The Internet should allow us to see if anyone is researching the possibility.
3. And using the Internet, I haven't been able to find any such efforts.

- Hope this isn't too far off topic...

Way to spectacularly miss the point! Do you really think ignoring posts that you cannot answer makes for "effective" debate?
 
Pixel,
- We humans seem to accept that effective public debate is impossible...
- I say that because,
1. Human survival may depend upon such a possibility.
2. The Internet should allow us to see if anyone is researching the possibility.
3. And using the Internet, I haven't been able to find any such efforts.

- Hope this isn't too far off topic...

Ha! This coming from someone who ignores more posts than he answers.

Of all the temerity!
 
Pixel,
- We humans seem to accept that effective public debate is impossible...
- I say that because,
1. Human survival may depend upon such a possibility.
2. The Internet should allow us to see if anyone is researching the possibility.
3. And using the Internet, I haven't been able to find any such efforts.

- Hope this isn't too far off topic...
You are trying to set the groundwork that
1. you are right
2. you can't actually show you are right through debate
3. it can't be that you are wrong
4. therefore debate is an innefective tool for determining truth.

This isn't really a debate, its a discussion through a medium that allows things like fact checking during the discussion. Formal debate doesn't really facilitate that.
So this format is actually MORE effective at finding truth than formal spoken debate.
In this avenue, you continually fail to make your case. Not because we are mean, or it is unfair, but because you cannot back up your assertions with evidence and reason.
 
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I've actually taken a step back from the hard core individual fringe arguments in the last few weeks and I've been trying to look at the whole ongoing fringe movement, trying to notice underlying trends and shared traits.

One of the broad philosophical underpinnings I've started to recognize is this vague, broad, unspoken and undefined anti-intellectual idea that society in general and the skeptics/rationalists/atheist/whatever groups specifically put too much value in being factually correct. With a lot of Woo Slingers and even more often with Woo Apologist this is sort of the impression I get after talking to them a while, that they see us sacrificing some other value or quality in order to "be right" and we need to learn that "being right" isn't all that matters. It often comes from people who have a very narrow personal view of what they consider science and who, in their worldview, have some equally valid method for determining a worldview.

This is where, I think, a lot (but not all) of the tone policing, a lot of the "Oh you just want to 'win' the argument" style counter arguments, and it certainly at least shares a border if not some territory with the "Science and logic are cold and sterile and take all the color and joy out of life" crowd.

This is where we often get those weird performance art skits that act like they are trying to pass a moral onto instead of making anything resembling a valid or even coherent argument. This is one of many reasons that these arguments just so aggressively go nowhere. They aren't trying to win, they are trying to make us give up because to them that proves that being "right" isn't that important.

This motivation is one of the hardest ones to argue against because A) it's full of doublespeak because no can with a straight face actually directly argue against factual correctness as a quality and B) is often really hard to tell how far down the rabbit hole they are.

I honestly do think there is a statistically significant portion of the population that, whether they admit it to others or themselves, sorta don't value factual correctness. Maybe it's an after the fact rationalization for non-factual belief they hold and can't bring themselves to get rid of, maybe it's an actual base personality component they do indeed have, maybe a little of both but I do think it is there and does affect intellectual discourse.

I think this is a factor, one of many, in some not all of the Woo topics in which the Woo proponent becomes over-obsessed with arguments being "nice."

This thread, while an extreme example of it, is hardly the first time we've dealt with someone who falls back on trying to police the behavior of the thread as a way to distract, themselves as much as anyone IMO, from being unable to intellectually defend a position.

I think this is an astute observation.
 
Pixel,
- We humans seem to accept that effective public debate is impossible...
- I say that because,
1. Human survival may depend upon such a possibility.
2. The Internet should allow us to see if anyone is researching the possibility.
3. And using the Internet, I haven't been able to find any such efforts.

- Hope this isn't too far off topic...


Do you believe that reality is determined by debate?
 
Given your past behavior, can you state a reason why anyone should trust you? Can you explain in what way this "map" of yours would be any different or better than this forum as it presently stands?
Jay,
- Theoretically, the map will provide a kind of "murder board" -- as seen on TV police dramas. It will try to summarize the relevant information -- in this case, the relevant arguments. IMO, it's something that we can do to help newcomers catch up, and everybody synthesize.
 
Do you believe that reality is determined by debate?
- I believe that the more we know both sides of a complementary story (what effective debate should help us with), the more likely we are to understand reality and to make the right decisions.
 
- I believe that the more we know both sides of a complementary story (what effective debate should help us with), the more likely we are to understand reality and to make the right decisions.


Learning more about an argument that has already failed cannot make it less wrong.
 
- Though, it might make the argument more understood, and appreciated.


Yes, the more we found out about your argument, the more we understood, and appreciated, that it is wrong.

ETA: This is why you have been desperately claiming that we don't understand it. We do, it's just that, wilfully or otherwise, you don't understand the objections to it.
 
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We already have a delightful thread on the topic of Jabba's effective debate claims here. I would feel devastated if after so many electrons had been expended in the creation of that thread for it now to fall in to disuse while the topic of this thread were abandoned in pursuit of an effective debate discussion.

Nay, it shall not be.

Please return to the topic at hand -- immortality and Bayesian proofs thereof. But don't be afraid to adventure beyond the confines of this thread. In fact, I know of a delightful thread that misses the attention of any and all wanting to exchange ideas about effective debate.

Peace
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: jsfisher
 
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