Cont: Proof of Immortality, V for Very long discussion

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Jabba said:
- This is why I say that words fail us. To me, the copy is obviously missing something -- and , I can't understand why you and the others would think otherwise...
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Then answer the question, how do you know you are not already a copy of the original Jabba.
 
Jabba said:
- This is why I say that words fail us. To me, the copy is obviously missing something -- and , I can't understand why you and the others would think otherwise...
Click to expand...

Words fail you. Explain (using your own words) what you think is so obvious.

Your repeated failure to understand is an admission of your failure, not an explanation of anything.
 
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Jabba said:
- This is why I say that words fail us. To me, the copy is obviously missing something -- and , I can't understand why you and the others would think otherwise...
Click to expand...


Some days I do nothing but log on, check this thread and log right back off again.
 
Jabba said:
- This is why I say that words fail us. To me, the copy is obviously missing something -- and , I can't understand why you and the others would think otherwise...
Click to expand...


Obviously what you claim is missing is what you refuse to call the soul of the original.

Note: I am not agreeing with you that something is missing from the copy.
 
If it's so obvious to you, Jabba, why are you finding it so hard to articulate what is missing from the copy?

You enter the Jabba Replicator 5000, there is a blinding flash of light, and two Jabbas exit. They are identical down to the molecular level, they both believe themselves to be the original Jabba (and they are both wearing clothes). They both have all the memories, mannerisms, and personality of the original you. Friends and family would be unable to tell them apart in any way. They both have an identical sense of self, arising from their identical-but separate brains.

What is the difference between them that you think will distinguish one from the other?
 
Jabba said:
- It wouldn't have my sense of self. It wouldn't have ME. It wouldn't bring ME back to life. It would be different.
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Why would you be brought back to life during the process of replication? If you were dead going in, 2 Jabba carcasses would emerge. If you were alive going in, two living Jabbas would come out.
 
Jabba said:
- It wouldn't have my sense of self. It wouldn't have ME. It wouldn't bring ME back to life. It would be different.
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It would have exactly that. Both the original and the copy would be YOU, indistinguishable. Your capital YOU or ME is just you trying to force in a singular soul into the discussion. There isn't one, just two yous, both YOU.
 
Agatha said:
If it's so obvious to you, Jabba, why are you finding it so hard to articulate what is missing from the copy?

You enter the Jabba Replicator 5000, there is a blinding flash of light, and two Jabbas exit. They are identical down to the molecular level, they both believe themselves to be the original Jabba (and they are both wearing clothes). They both have all the memories, mannerisms, and personality of the original you. Friends and family would be unable to tell them apart in any way. They both have an identical sense of self, arising from their identical-but separate brains.

What is the difference between them that you think will distinguish one from the other?
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Agatha,
- I do appreciate your civility.
- Second question first: If our method of reproduction didn't allow us to mark the original, no one would ever know which was which.

The examples, based on the work of the renowned child psychologist Jean Piaget, are taken from books by philosopher-psychologist Ken Wilber. Here is an example involving a glass of water and a second, taller empty glass. Wilber writes: If you take [very young] children, and, right in front of their eyes, pour the water from a short glass into a tall glass, and ask them which glass has more water, they will always say the tall glass has more, even though they saw you pour the same amount from one glass to the other. They cannot ‘conserve volume.’ Certain ‘obvious’ things that we see, they do not and cannot see—they live in a different worldspace. No matter how many times you pour the same amount of water back and forth between the two glasses, they will insist the tall glass has more….
Marion, James. Putting on the Mind of Christ: The Inner Work of Christian Spirituality (pp. 15-16). Hampton Roads Publishing. Kindle Edition.

- Seems to me that either me -- or you guys -- just don't recognize the logic in this situation. Your position just doesn't make sense to me; my position just doesn't make sense to you... Words fail us.
- Not that one of us is at the cognitive level depicted here, just that we are at different levels. I accept that I could be the one missing something...

- This ought to stir a lot of pots!
 
jsfisher said:
It would have exactly that. Both the original and the copy would be YOU, indistinguishable. Your capital YOU or ME is just you trying to force in a singular soul into the discussion. There isn't one, just two yous, both YOU.
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js,
- Would I be reincarnated? Brought back to life?
 
Jabba said:
If our method of reproduction didn't allow us to mark the original, no one would ever know which was which.
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So how would each you know whether you were the one who was you or the one who wasn't you? If neither of you could tell which was which, and it wasn't possible to tell by any other means, how could you define one as the real you and one as the copy?

Dave
 
Jabba said:
js,
- Would I be reincarnated? Brought back to life?
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You haven't defined what that being brought back to life means, so how can I answer your question?

After the cloning, there would be two YOUs. Both would be alive, and both would be YOU in every legitimate meaning you could give such a concept under H.

If by "brought back to life" you mean the creation of an entity with your exact sense of self, then, yes, you would be brought back to life.
 
Pixel42 said:
The earth is obviously flat, I can't understand why anyone would think otherwise ...

The sun obviously goes round the earth, I can't understand why anyone would think otherwise ...

Time and space are obviously the same for everyone, I can't understand why Einstein thought otherwise ...

This is why common sense is not a reliable guide to the true nature of the universe.
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Pixel,
- Yeah. One of us is -- or, a bunch of us are -- missing something.
 
Jabba said:
- It wouldn't have my sense of self. It wouldn't have ME. It wouldn't bring ME back to life. It would be different.
Click to expand...

Stop that, please. If you really cannot understand it, so be it, but don't expect us to keep explaining it to you.

It doesn't matter if you could be brought back or not. Not being able to be brought back only confirms your mortality, so what is your point, other than stalling?


Hans
 
Jabba said:
Agatha,
- I do appreciate your civility.
- Second question first: If our method of reproduction didn't allow us to mark the original, no one would ever know which was which.

The examples, based on the work of the renowned child psychologist Jean Piaget, are taken from books by philosopher-psychologist Ken Wilber. Here is an example involving a glass of water and a second, taller empty glass. Wilber writes: If you take [very young] children, and, right in front of their eyes, pour the water from a short glass into a tall glass, and ask them which glass has more water, they will always say the tall glass has more, even though they saw you pour the same amount from one glass to the other. They cannot ‘conserve volume.’ Certain ‘obvious’ things that we see, they do not and cannot see—they live in a different worldspace. No matter how many times you pour the same amount of water back and forth between the two glasses, they will insist the tall glass has more….
Marion, James. Putting on the Mind of Christ: The Inner Work of Christian Spirituality (pp. 15-16). Hampton Roads Publishing. Kindle Edition.

- Seems to me that either me -- or you guys -- just don't recognize the logic in this situation. Your position just doesn't make sense to me; my position just doesn't make sense to you... Words fail us.
- Not that one of us is at the cognitive level depicted here, just that we are at different levels. I accept that I could be the one missing something...

- This ought to stir a lot of pots!
Click to expand...

Jabba, this is irrelevant.

Hans
 
Jabba said:
js,
- Would I be reincarnated? Brought back to life?
Click to expand...

This is silly: Reincarnation is not about copying at all. It is not even about remembering past lives, although some claim they do.

Our discussion here has nothing what so ever to do with reincarnation.

Hans
 
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