JFK Conspiracy Theories IV: The One With The Whales

[OKBob]

nice straw man [snip] Another assumption Spoken like a person who believes that LHO was the Lone Gunman.[snip]

Sorry, No Other, but I was not offering a straw man but rather an analogy. If you don't like the analogy, or you think the shoe doesn't fit, fine with me. Please do not attempt to defeat my criticisms by making me out to be a "believer" of this or that. I have no faith-based position here. I'm testing your claims with the tools of critical thinking. If you don't like that, there are lots of online forums where they just argue back and forth about details of the assassination that have been kicked around for 50 years. ISF is about something else.

 

[HSienzant]

The rifle in the photograph? I don't care how he got that rifle; if it can be proven that the rifle in the photograph is the rifle used in the assassination... then that would capture my attention.

That was done by the HSCA, and one member of the photographic panel, working independently.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol6/html/HSCA_Vol6_0047b.htm

The gouge apparent in good copies of the backyard photos is also present in the National Archives rifle bearing the serial number C2766. The rifle Oswald is holding in the backyard photos is therefore the same one discovered in the Depository and residing in the archives, the one bearing serial number C2766.

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

That is not for me to determine; my challenge to others is to show the rifle LHO is holding is the one that was found at the TSBD.

Done.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol6/html/HSCA_Vol6_0047b.htm

Hank

 

[bknight]

Done.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol6/html/HSCA_Vol6_0047b.htm

Hank

But is it 40.2" or is it 36" ?

And who measured it and when for what reason?

 

[HSienzant]

This is not quibbling, it is at the heart of ownership of the assassination weapon. Hank, posted this thinking it showed that multiple people had access to the PO Box to where the assassination weapon was shipped... at least that was what I requested. Maybe Hank made an entry error but nonetheless it does not prove that the 40" weapon was shipped or picked up at PO Box 2915.

No, that was not how the discussion went at all.

You advanced the silly argument that Marina's failure to notice a scope eliminated the C2766 rifle.

Earlier, I posted how one of Marina's first Secret Service interviews has her interpreter translating her words as saying that she had never seen a rifle with a scope, and didn't know that rifles with scopes existed until she saw it on television after the assassination.

I pointed out Marina's even earlier mention of the rifle, normally stored in the Paine garage in a blanket to the first officers to show up at the Paine home. I also pointed out there's plenty of other evidence linking the rifle to Oswald:

And you might want to recall there's other evidence Oswald owned a rifle, independent of Marina's ID. Like:
1. His order form for the rifle, specifying he was ordering a rifle with a scope.
2. His order form for the rifle, specifying a shipping address of Oswald's PO Box.
3. The Money Order in his handwriting for $21.45, the purchase price of his MC rifle with a scope.
4. The Klein's business records, showing they shipped a rifle with a scope to his PO Box.
5. The backyard photographs of Oswald holding a rifle with a scope.
6. His palmprint was found on the rifle (with a scope) recovered from the Depository.
7. His fingerprints were found on the triggerguard. .

You then abandoned the "Marina / scope" line of argument entirely, instead arguing that Oswald didn't order the rifle or pay for it, Hidell did. Your responses to the first two points above pretended Oswald & Hidell were different persons.

Hidell bought the rifle
Hidell's order form did show LHO PO Box

I cited evidence indicating Oswald used Hidell as an alias.

Hilarious. "Hidell" ordered the rifle?

You mean this Hidell?
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-c0WPbzMqVMk/Ut2sJ8pBOcI/AAAAAAAAxsI/MIubuBInlVg/s1600/CE795.png

Hidell was a known alias of Oswald. He used it multiple times and even listed it as a person to receive mail on another PO Box Oswald opened in Dallas. [emphasis added - I said Dallas, but he opened the 30061 PO Box in New Orleans, my mistake]
http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/n...-box-the-box-users-are-as-picture-id576878048

He also handed out handbills for the Fair Play for Cuba Committee (FPCC) with that name as the contact.
http://media.gettyimages.com/photos...j-hidell-po-box-30016-new-picture-id576877938

Oswald and the Hidell alias are linked tightly.

For example, the money order used to pay for the rifle ordered by "Hidell" was determined to be in Oswald's handwriting.
Alwyn Cole of the U.S.Treasury and James Cadigan of the FBI so testified to the Warren Commission.

You abandoned the "Hidell was a different person" argument to argue the straw man that the rifle was not shipped to the PO Box 30061 cited (I NEVER said it was, and I didn't cite it for that reason, I cited it to establish Oswald used the Hidell persona repeatedly), and changing your argument to "How did Hidell pick up the package at PO Box 2915"? (but that has been asked and answered, he could have used the fake ID he prepared, or he could have picked up the card in the PO Box that notified him of mail to receive, and picked it up merely by presenting the card).

In a previous post I gave you the benefit of the doubt regarding the PO Box having Hidell as a person who could receive items. The PO Box reference your post is for PO Box 30061; the PO Box the rifle was delivered to was PO Box 2915. Your link does not address how Hidell was able to pick up packages at PO Box 2915 (where the rifle shipped).

Getting you to stay on track has proven to be a fruitless venture. You ignore the points made and change your argument at a whim. It's like playing a game of whack-a-mole with you (with your arguments being the moles).

You may deny being a conspiracy theorist, but your arguments say otherwise. You advance the same arguments as every other conspiracy theorist I've encountered online over the past 30 years.

And of course, now you're pretending I mentioned the 30061 PO Box in error, but it wasn't in error. It was to establish that Oswald was Hidell, and saying Hidell ordered the rifle and paid for it is synonymous with saying Oswald ordered the rifle and paid for it.

Hank, posted this thinking it showed that multiple people had access to the PO Box to where the assassination weapon was shipped... at least that was what I requested. Maybe Hank made an entry error but nonetheless it does not prove that the 40" weapon was shipped or picked up at PO Box 2915.

Your arguments go nowhere. This one ends with a whimper of a straw man argument.

Hank

 

[RoboTimbo]

snip non answers.

What evidence do we have of the existence of a 40" MC with serial #C2766?

What evidence do we have of the existence of a 36" MC with serial #C2766?

Compare the two.

What was the gist of Robert Frazier's testimony concerning duplicate serial numbers on same make of gun to the WC?

I'm trying to help you learn but you have to put forth a little effort yourself.

 

[HSienzant]

FTFY, The PO Box 2915 was rented by LHO, just because Hank may have posted an incorrect number does not mean his intention was to show that LHO received the rifle used in the assignation, quit quibbling over nonsense.

Hank posted the link to PO Box 30061 to establish that Oswald and the Hidell alias were linked by evidence, and that saying Hidell ordered and paid for the rifle is synonymous with saying Oswald ordered and paid for it.

This PO Box with "Hidell" allowed to receive mail is universally ignored by conspiracy authors. Note that "No Other" said he was unfamiliar with this document or that Hidell was listed as able to receive mail at the PO Box.

The fact that Oswald listed Hidell on the PO Box he opened in New Orleans (30061) shortly after the attempted assassination of Walker lends credence to the fact that he might well have listed Hidell on the PO Box he opened earlier in Dallas (2915) that the rifle was shipped to.

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

And why do companies use such serial numbers?
Given this is also the number on the rifle in evidence, what do you think we can reasonably conclude from this, until you provide evidence of another rifle with that unique serial number?

Serial numbers are unique. Otherwise there is no reason to use them.

The serial number C2766 is the only one of its kind ever manufactured and stamped on a Mannlicher Carcano made in Terni, Italy.

The paperwork shows this particular rifle was shipped to Oswald.
The backyard photographs show Oswald took possession of this particular rifle.
The palmprint and fingerprints also show he possessed it.
The rifle was discovered at his place of work, after being stored in the Paine garage.
Only one person had known access to both places, Lee Harvey Oswald.
Not so coincidentally, he was seen transporting a long package to the Depository on the morning of the assassination, and his rifle was found to be missing from the Paine garage on the afternoon of the assassination.

For most people, that's sufficient evidence.

Not for conspiracy theorists.

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

Other than Waldman's testimony, what would you accept? What's missing? The rifle with serial number c2766 was shipped to Oswald's PO Box. It says it right there in the testimony. A photograph of the record referred to is in the Warren report, isn't it, Hank?

Not sure if it's in the Warren Report, proper. But it's in their 26 volumes of evidence. It's Waldman Exhibit 7, appearing in Volume 21.

Here's the link: http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/html/WH_Vol21_0364a.htm

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

This is getting old... just show me where a 40.2" rifle was sent to the PO Box 2915; I am not asking for a rifle with the serial number C2766. The key is 40.2" not the serial number... show where the 40.2" rifle was shipped. I do not need inferences.

No, the key is the unique serial number of C2766. If it's not unique, what's the point of having it? The rifle bearing the unique serial number C2766 is 40.2 inches long. Your argument goes nowhere, especially since we know Klein's knew they were running out of the smaller 36" weapons and changed their advertisement in March (April-dated magazines appear on newsstands in March) to reflect the fact that the rifle would be 40" inches long.

The rifle bearing the unique serial number C2766 was shipped from Klein's to Oswald's PO box. That's the rifle he's seen holding in the backyard photos. That's the rifle found in the Depository. That's the rifle with his prints on it. That's the rifle that was responsible for the assassination. That's the rifle in the National Archives today.

That rifle is 40" inches long.

Live with it.

Hank

 

[RoboTimbo]

No Other, you lost this one definitively. Time to get some of the CTist's favorite exercise, jumping from one anomaly to another.

What's next?

 

[HSienzant]

For shipping purposes, a packing slip showing a 40.2" rifle was sent to the PO Box.

A packing slip is enclosed with the product shipped. It is not retained by the retailer. Oswald obviously didn't keep the packing slip.

For picking it up, the Post Office will have a consent form that shows that Hidell is allowed to pick up product from the PO Box 2915.

Or that Oswald presented the card in his box and asked for the shipment, or that Oswald showed the fake Hidell ID and got the rifle that way.

The backyard photos, along with his prints on the weapon, show he picked up the weapon. You are quibbling over a lack of paperwork when none of this is necessary in a normal case. But because the accused is named Oswald, then this all must be overproven.

Pick another shooting; where is it mandatory to determine how the shooter got his weapons? You arguments mean that all shooters who buy their weapons without a paper trail -- like most criminals -- should go scot-free. Without that paper trail showing exactly what weapon they purchased, and exactly what weapon they picked up, they can't be convicted.

You argument makes a mockery of the reasonable doubt standard.

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

I am saying the paperwork shows a 36" rifle was shipped. You need to show a 40.2" rifle was sent...

Asked and answered. Oswald can be established to be in possession of the 40.2" rifle bearing the serial number C2766. Klein's paperwork shows the rifle bearing that serial number of C2766 was shipped to Oswald's PO box.

We're done.

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

Are you claiming that a 36" MC existed with serial #C2766?

That is what Klein's records show... this is not my claim.

No, this is your claim. The Klein's shipping records don't show a rifle length.

It is a presumption by you that no substitution occurred.

You are presuming they shipped the rifle ordered, even though we know they changed the advertisement during the month of March to reflect a 40" rifle was now being shipped.

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

I think it's extremely unlikely that the same serial number was used for two different weapons made by the same manufacturer with different barrel lengths. Since the serial number on the murder weapon matches the serial number sent by Klein's, my conclusion is that they listed the barrel length incorrectly.

You have nothing. Give it up.

Oswald's order was post-marked March 13, 1963.

Here's a copy of the advertisement Oswald ordered from (it is from a February publication, meaning it appeared on newsstands in January):
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-xkdKVRtQe...WjNbuE/s535/Kleins-Rifle-Ad-February-1963.jpg

By the time Oswald ordered, that advertisement was two months out of date.

Here's a copy of the advertisement appearing in April magazines (appearing on newsstands in March):
http://s1110.photobucket.com/user/johniscool5/media/36inch40incha.jpg.html

Klein's was advertising 40" rifles in March, and shipping 40" inch rifles in March. Klein's shipped Oswald the 40" rifle they then had in stock on March 20th, 1963.

Oswald's ordering from an older advertisement is meaningless (but this is the entire argument advanced by "No Other"). Otherwise I will order a 1953 Corvette direct from Chevy and expect to get it at the then-advertised price.

Companies always reserve the right to ship an equivalent product when they are out of stock on the advertised item. Oswald ordered a product that Klein's was out of stock on, Klein's shipped him the current advertised product.

Like this is so foreign in American commerce.

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

Did Klein measure everyone of the rifles that it received from distributors? Did Klein measure every rifle shipped? Or more likely did Klein inventory on the serial numbers? That a different length rifle was shipped probably is not the fault of a shipping clerk, but of inventory information that was entered in error/shipped entry error of inventory. Nothing suspicious here except to a CT advocate.

There is no error in measurement. It's entirely a presumption by No Other that because Oswald ordered from an order form that referenced a 36" rifle, then Oswald was shipped a 36" rifle, even though we know by March Klein's was advertising (and therefore shipping) 40" rifles. Oswald was shipped the 40" MC bearing the serial number C2766 on March 20th.

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

Removed duplicate posting.

 

[HSienzant]

This is nothing but an assumption and you are not dealing with facts. Below is a link to the internal at Kleins, it shows the model number and that refers to a 36" rifle and the serial number of C2766.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-j2O-kIQp5...AAxSI/G97X3C5lxOI/s1600/Waldman-Exhibit-7.jpg

Now show me a form from Kleins that shows a 40.2" rifle was shipped to PO Box 2915.

Show me where on that form it says 36" rifle.

You can't. You're presuming it means that, but it's your presumption only.

Here's the advertisement running in March of 1963 showing the 40" rifle.
http://s1110.photobucket.com/user/johniscool5/media/36inch40incha.jpg.html

Note the catalog (not model) number.

You're assuming the catalog number was changed to reflect the different length, but it wasn't. C20-T750 is the catalog number for both the 36" and 40" rifles.

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

I am not championing the 40.2" rifle.

We're all aware of that. He's making a point that you're doing your best to avoid the implications of.

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

No, sorry, YOU need to show that the Carcano with that serial number left the factory in Italy at 36", was never modified with a longer barrel, and was 36" when it left Europe, and entered the US at the same length, and was shipped by the wholesaler at 36".

If you are going to play knit-picking then you have to go all the way.

I am not up on the surplus European weapons market in the decade after WWII, but I doubt much care was put into accuracy of labeling - especially cheap Italian rifles. The Carcano in question was likely packed into a crate with a bunch of other weapons, and was either mislabeled in Europe by the original seller, or was mislabeled/not double-checked by the importing party.
Whatever the case, Kleins bought a longer rifle at no extra cost (if there was one), advertised it at 36", and sold it.

Those 4 inches you're stressing over only made the rifle more accurate.

You're buying into his argument, but his argument is based on the fact that Oswald ordered a 36" rifle, ergo, he must have been shipped that.

That "ergo" is the problem, because he's ignoring the fact that the ad for the rifle changed from 36" to 40" at about the time Oswald ordered the weapon, that Klein's used the same catalog number for both weapons, and that the weapon that Oswald had possession of about a week after the shipment was the 40" rifle bearing the serial number C2766.

Buying into any portion of his argument is a mistake.

Hank