Cont: Proof of Immortality, V for Very long discussion

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- My claim is that if I'm not brought back to life, my copy isn't perfect.

But this is the root of your problem. It assumes a non-physical element that would be 'resurrected' or retrieved (from somewhere else). Then you claim that because H does not include your default assumption that H is wrong. CLEAR case of Begging the Question. You can't make an assumption as a premise and then use it to support the conclusion based on that premise.

You must demonstrate that your premises are true independently of the desired conclusion.
 
Unfortunately for you, pretty much everyone else does.

I certainly do, and I can attest that a number of people including you have expended generous effort trying to educate Jabba. Unfortunately for Jabba, his ongoing lack of comprehension doesn't give him a pass. That's just how the world works. If Jabba doesn't understand how he's wrong, he doesn't get to say he must be right. Sure, it gives him a perfunctory reason to ignore today's criticism. But I think the long-term gambit is that readers will see Jabba say "I don't understand" and conclude that if a smart guy like Jabba can't understand skeptics' rebuttals, there must not be anything to them. Jabba's long-standing pattern is that he simply doesn't read posts he thinks are too long or too complicated. He wants to foist the ground rule that he's liable only for short, simple rebuttals. That often means shallow and ineffective rebuttals.
 
Start with this: why do you think that the "self" is a different property from a VW's colour?

In this particular case I would look to properties other than color. Color is not an emergent property. It's a more straightforward property. If I tear the fender off a yellow VW, the fender is still yellow. The concept of emergence is that a simple component of a complex entity does not exhibit an emergent property. An emergent property arises only out of the synergistic behavior of the composition working properly together.

Hence, "going 60 mph" is a better property to talk about. And we clarify and revise the property we can understand the commonality better. By "going 60 mph" we mean "can propel itself at 60 mph over reasonably flat surfaces." The key concept is self-propulsion. A lot of ordinary objects can reach 60 mph if you drop them off a tall cliff. And let's lower the speed a bit -- say 10 mph.

A detached fender is still yellow but, as merely a component of the VW, does not exhibit the property of "can propel itself at 10 mph." It can't propel itself at all. Various components from the engine -- say, a piston ring -- directly contributes to the VW's emergent property of self-propulsion but cannot exhibit that property by itself.

The sense of identity is an emergent property of a functioning brain, but of course in order for that brain to function it has to receive oxygen, water, and nutrients, and has to eliminate waste products. The rest of the body provides those things. It develops the sense only by exposure to a varied environment. The body also provides that.

Another emergent property of the human organism is the ability to propel itself at 10 mph, just like the VW. That property becomes useful when seeking food or escaping predators, which aids the survival of the species. Because it does that, we can say it has an evolutionary factor. My left leg, by itself, does not have the property to propel itself at 10 mph. It works in concert with the rest of my body to achieve locomotion. Locomotion is just as much an emergent property as my intelligence and sense of self, requires just the same sorts of things as my sense of self, and -- by coincidence -- shares with a Volkswagen the emergent property of "can propel itself at 10 mph over reasonably flat terrain."

Jabba's line of reasoning wants to beg the question that the sense of self is some magical property that is different, somehow, that any other kind of emergent property. Under H it isn't. "Has a sense of self" is an emergent property of no different character than "can propel itself." Jabba has spoken at length about how his sense of self is magical because he can experience with a profound subjective effect. H is not required to consider that this is any other kind of observation than that which serves other sorts of science. There is no "wow factor" to the subjective experience of self that transcends H. There is a subjective experience to running at 10 mph too. Just because we can subjectively experience it doesn't mean "propel itself at 10 mph" is some "new" sort of property. That's just special pleading at its best.

A sense of identity leads to a sense of community. Early humans formed bands, and the sense of community that stems from a sense of identity compelled us to evolve laws and other social structures that mitigated conflict between identity and community. Other species have social orders too. Hence it is reasonable to suppose other species have some semblance of a sense of self. Since communities have evolutionarily-valuable survival traits, the sense of self has evolutionarily-desirable traits. Species that develop a sense of self as an emergent property of their organisms have a survival factor.

Emergence is important because Jabba seems to want to drive the wedge between the relatively "simple" properties of color and more complex properties that arise in systems only via emergence. Jabba says his sense of self is so profound and marvelous that it can't just "accidentally" arise. It's the irreducible-complexity argument all over again, and with all such arguments it can be supported only by vigorous question begging and vigorously reversing the burden of proof. In other words, it has no support. Jabba insists there's some magical "ME" out there that he can't define in any terms other than that which would not be present in a hypothetically perfect copy of his organism. That's where the circularity spins.
 
Hans,
- If my copy did't bring ME back to life, it would not involve my particular sense of self -- there would be something missing. The old VW had no sense of self to be missing in its perfect copy.

So what? What would be missing from your clone? Under H nothing would be missing at all. Under your conjecture, something would be missing but you are unable to say what that might be.

Why is that? Well, you have attempted endless redefinitions of a soul and none have worked, not a single one.

You have attempted to redefine you interlocutors counters as agreement to the extent that your interlocutors have perforce have had to post statements denying your claim.

Is this, in your mind, effective debate?
 
So what? What would be missing from your clone? Under H nothing would be missing at all. Under your conjecture, something would be missing but you are unable to say what that might be.

Why is that? Well, you have attempted endless redefinitions of a soul and none have worked, not a single one.

You have attempted to redefine you interlocutors counters as agreement to the extent that your interlocutors have perforce have had to post statements denying your claim.

Is this, in your mind, effective debate?

Plus, the VW had its own processes, and they're not part of the copy, either.
 
Well, you have attempted endless redefinitions of a soul and none have worked, not a single one.


Not really. He has just used different terms for the same concept in the hope that nobody would notice that he was begging the question.

But you're right: it hasn't fooled anyone (except, perhaps, Jabba).
 
The copy would bring YOU back to life. There would be no way (expect by observation of the copy process) to distinguish YOU before and YOU after.

Hans

Why has no one taken issue with this balderdash even after it was repeated several times? Is MRC_Hans in with the in crowd or something?

I distinctly recall, not so long ago, a great push was underway to convince Jabba that an exact copy of a thing is not the same thing as the original. Have those relative positions now swapped?

Well. I ain't playing along.

MRC_Hans: No. Making an exact copy of YOU would not bring YOU back to life, irrespective of whether the copy or anyone else knows the copy is not the original. Informational states do not exert magical influences on the identities of things. An absence of knowledge about the identity of a thing does not change what or who the thing is.

Don't worry. Admitting that something other than our physical organization determines who we are won't let any soul-cats out of the bag. The neverending search for immortality must necessarily take an entirely different course.
 
- My claim is that if I'm not brought back to life, my copy isn't perfect.

But this is the root of your problem. It assumes a non-physical element that would be 'resurrected' or retrieved (from somewhere else). Then you claim that because H does not include your default assumption that H is wrong. CLEAR case of Begging the Question. You can't make an assumption as a premise and then use it to support the conclusion based on that premise.

You must demonstrate that your premises are true independently of the desired conclusion.
Waterman,
- Mostly, that premise just seems self-evident to me…
- I.e., there would be a difference between the two “selves” if I wasn’t brought back to life.
- If that would require a non-physical element, so be it.
 
Waterman,
- Mostly, that premise just seems self-evident to me…
- I.e., there would be a difference between the two “selves” if I wasn’t brought back to life.
- If that would require a non-physical element, so be it.

He didn't say "repeat". He said "demonstrate".

There is no non-physical element until you demonstrate that there is. Stop dancing around the issue.
 
Waterman,
- Mostly, that premise just seems self-evident to me…
- I.e., there would be a difference between the two “selves” if I wasn’t brought back to life.

What's the difference between the two selves? Do they observe differently, think differently, perceive differently?
 
Waterman,
- Mostly, that premise just seems self-evident to me…
- I.e., there would be a difference between the two “selves” if I wasn’t brought back to life.
- If that would require a non-physical element, so be it.

And that's begging the question for the ten thousandth time. You are including your conclusion as part of your premises.
 
Why has no one taken issue with this balderdash even after it was repeated several times? Is MRC_Hans in with the in crowd or something?

Perhaps if you tried to participate in the discussion rather than looking for details to pounce on, you would notice a couple of things, like:

- We do not necessarily all (except Jabba) agree.

- Jabba's definitions are intentionally fuzzy, which means that apparently different answers can in fact cover the same subject.

- The above is the well-known Star Trek "Beam me up Scotty" problem: The original body is dissolved into energy, transmitted and re-assembled at the destination, where the person certainly assumes he is still alive and the same "YOU" as before.

I distinctly recall, not so long ago, a great push was underway to convince Jabba that an exact copy of a thing is not the same thing as the original. Have those relative positions now swapped?

You are now piggybacking on Jabba's equivocation where he (presumably intentionally) insists on confusing 'identical' with 'same'.

Must I explain the difference to you too?

Well. I ain't playing along.

Well, then what are you playing?

MRC_Hans: No. Making an exact copy of YOU would not bring YOU back to life, irrespective of whether the copy or anyone else knows the copy is not the original. Informational states do not exert magical influences on the identities of things. An absence of knowledge about the identity of a thing does not change what or who the thing is.

In that case you would have to explain what you think exists other than the emergent property of our physical instance. You can, of course, construct a definition of YOU that requires it to be generated by the original instance, but that would not only be illogical, but it would render your argument circular.

Don't worry. Admitting that something other than our physical organization determines who we are won't let any soul-cats out of the bag.

Oh, I don't worry at all. Not even about souls. I am just waiting for some shred of evidence.

The neverending search for immortality must necessarily take an entirely different course.

Well, I don't search for immortality. If, against expectations and evidence, I should turn out to be immortal, I am obviously going to find out.

Hans
 
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Mostly, that premise just seems self-evident to me…

It isn't self-evident. And it's specifically dismissed under H. You're begging the question.

I.e., there would be a difference between the two “selves” if I wasn’t brought back to life.

You've hawked this nonsense for days if not weeks, and you still can't tell anyone exactly what you think would have to be different. You even go so far as to admit that "whatever it is" is the best you can come up with, and define it as simply "whatever wouldn't be reproduced."

Reasoning doesn't get any more blatantly circular than that.

If that would require a non-physical element, so be it.

You have the cart before the horse. You're claiming there's something non-physical such that it will make you immortal. You claim you can prove it. Your method of proving it is to falsify materialism and assert, with no direct evidence, that there must then exist a non-material element of your being -- a soul. And your proposal to falsify materialism is nothing more than your supposition that you must have a soul.

I can't believe I have had to explain this to you, in these words, so many different times. Most people recognize this as inherently circular logic.
 
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