Cont: Proof of Immortality, V for Very long discussion

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Argumemnon said:
It's posted on a forum readable to the public. I don't think you can prevent Jabba from quoting you, or misquoting you.
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Of course I can't physically prevent anyone from doing anything with the words or images I post here. However, by unequivocally stating my objection, and my reasons for my objection, on a forum readable to the public, Jabba now has to make the ethical choice between accepting and honoring this, or publicly demonstrating his bad faith when it comes to respecting others' positions.
 
Hokulele said:
Of course I can't physically prevent anyone from doing anything with the words or images I post here. However, by unequivocally stating my objection, and my reasons for my objection, on a forum readable to the public, Jabba now has to make the ethical choice between accepting and honoring this, or publicly demonstrating his bad faith when it comes to respecting others' positions.
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I was talking about the legality of it. Of course you can ask him not to, but you know he will anyway.
 
Jabba said:
Agatha,
- Unfortunately, this won't be easy...
- I didn't actually chose 1 in 7 billion. I chose 7 billion over infinity. I see my current existence as being analogous to one of the winners of a lottery where there are 7 billion winners out of an infinity of participants/possibilities.
- It could be however, that a better estimate would have been much smaller. I was born between 10 and 11 pm on June 4, 1942 in Lecompte LA to Louise and Gordon Savage. Given that information, the likelihood of my current existence is only 1 in infinity.
- Hopefully, I won't need to explain why my chances weren't 1 in 1...
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Right, I see where you got the numbers from now. I am sorry for misunderstanding you.

You're still wrong, unfortunately. Life isn't a lottery where the winners are chosen randomly. Your existence owes itself to the existence of your parents, and they in turn owe their existence to the existence of their parents, und so weiter.

The notion of potential selves is as wrong and meaningless as the notions of potential rocks or potential blades of grass or potential carrot cakes; the fact that my local supermarket sells all the ingredients to make several thousand carrot cakes at any one time has no bearing at all on the chance of the carrot cake I intend to make tomorrow existing, or the chance of the one I made last week existing when I made it.
 
Agatha said:
Right, I see where you got the numbers from now. I am sorry for misunderstanding you.

You're still wrong, unfortunately. Life isn't a lottery where the winners are chosen randomly. Your existence owes itself to the existence of your parents, and they in turn owe their existence to the existence of their parents, und so weiter.

The notion of potential selves is as wrong and meaningless as the notions of potential rocks or potential blades of grass or potential carrot cakes; the fact that my local supermarket sells all the ingredients to make several thousand carrot cakes at any one time has no bearing at all on the chance of the carrot cake I intend to make tomorrow existing, or the chance of the one I made last week existing when I made it.
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Yeah, I tried this line of reasoning before with Jabba.

Jabba must have two parents. Each of those must have had two parents, so now Jabba must have 4 ancestors. And the progression continues.

So let us take a generation as a generous forty years. 2,000 years ago that means there were 1,125,899,906,842,624 heartily making the beast with two backs to produce Jabba. That is more people than have ever existed. And it doesn't include the intervening generations, only those from 2,000 years ago. And it doesn't include mine or yours or anyone else's, just Jabba's alone.

Since there are now 7,000,000,000 of us, 2,000 years ago there must have been 7,000,000,000 x 1,125,899,906,842,624 = 7,881,299,347,898,368,000,000,000 of us.

That is 1,435,573,651 ancestors per square foot. Just 2,000 years ago. And we have been about for a lot longer than that. I rather think we might have noticed that.

Jabba's response to this was "gee, I never thought of that, let me think about it and come back to you"

Did he ever return to that? Guess.

Bottom line? Jabba is delving into math he does not understand.
 
Argumemnon said:
I was talking about the legality of it. Of course you can ask him not to, but you know he will anyway.
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Argumemnon,
- I won't quote Hokulele if he doesn't want me to, but I do want to present the other side, so I'll paraphrase whoever is appropriate. I won't identify said person if he or she doesn't want me to.
- Also, remember how slow I am. My map might be a straw man.
 
Jabba said:
Argumemnon,
- I won't quote Hokulele if he doesn't want me to,
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Not that it really matters, but for the record, I am a she.

but I do want to present the other side, so I'll paraphrase whoever is appropriate. I won't identify said person if he or she doesn't want me to.
- Also, remember how slow I am. My map might be a straw man.
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No, based on past history, you want to present a neutered version of "the other side" to make your argument look better. That is the main reason I do not want my comments included.
 
Jabba said:
I do want to present the other side, so I'll paraphrase whoever is appropriate.
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Why do you need to present both sides in a separate forum? The debate is here. You get to present your side in your words. Each of your critics gets to present his side in his words. Neither has an upper hand by controlling the venue. You offer nothing better than what's already here, and the potential for far worse.

Also, remember how slow I am.
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Indeed, the last time you attempted to rewrite the debate you gave this as your excuse for not acting on the requests of people you had misquoted or misrepresented. If your capacity hasn't improved, why would you attempt again something you flatly failed at before?

My map might be a straw man.
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What you're contemplating has only one conceivable purpose over simply continuing here at ISF: to rewrite the debate to make it look like you won.
 
Jabba said:
Also, remember how slow I am.
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Correct arguments, or at least valid intellectually honest ones, don't take anymore time than wrong ones Jabba.

And there is just something self serving and hypocritical about 5 years into a discussion in which you've data dumped massive amounts of meaningless non-sequitors into still playing the "I don't have time" excuse.

You seem to have a lot more time to pitch your Woo then you do to defend it.
 
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Jabba said:
Argumemnon,
- I won't quote Hokulele if he doesn't want me to, but I do want to present the other side, so I'll paraphrase whoever is appropriate. I won't identify said person if he or she doesn't want me to.
- Also, remember how slow I am. My map might be a straw man.
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Why you you contemplate making your map a straw man? The only possible reason is so that you dishonestly present the other side.

Jabba you have lost this debate, badly, and on every front. Any map of the debate you create anywhere other than here will be nothing but a lie, unless you come out and acknowledge how badly you have lost.

ETA: like several other posters, I object to you misquoting my posts here for use elsewhere. The "messiah hot or not" debacle made it clear that you have no intention of honestly representing your opposition.
 
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Jabba said:
Argumemnon,
- I won't quote Hokulele if he doesn't want me to, but I do want to present the other side, so I'll paraphrase whoever is appropriate. I won't identify said person if he or she doesn't want me to.
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Tell you what. If you didn't waste time working on "presenting" the debate on your site you might have some to waste on addressing the arguments you plan on putting on that site instead.

In short you're the architect of your own problems.
 
There, Jabba, as always, you can quote or adapt or use anything I've ever posted in one of your threads or any other thread.

Any goddamn thing you want.
 
Jabba said:
Agatha,
- Unfortunately, this won't be easy...
[...].
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Let me help you:
Come on come on, come on come on
Come on its such a joy
Come on its such a joy
Come on let's take it easy
Come on let's take it easy
Take it easy take it easy
Everybody's got something to hide except for me and
My monkey
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That only took me a couple of minutes to research. The Beatles make more sense than any argument you have presented these last 4-5 years,
 
Jabba said:
LL,
- Yeah. I'm just saying that knowing so little about ultimate reality should put a damper on our confidence about limitations on our existence -- especially, when we currently exist.
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Jabba -

If you were "just saying that," then you'd be admitting that placing any odds on your existence at all would be futile. Even more specious would be comparing those pretend odds to any other pretend odds you create. I don't think you're fully accepting the problem.
 
Loss Leader said:
Jabba -

If you were "just saying that," then you'd be admitting that placing any odds on your existence at all would be futile. Even more specious would be comparing those pretend odds to any other pretend odds you create. I don't think you're fully accepting the problem.
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LL,
- I recognize what you're saying. So far, I think these different unknowns complement each other towards weakening H.
 
Argumemnon said:
Tell you what. If you didn't waste time working on "presenting" the debate on your site you might have some to waste on addressing the arguments you plan on putting on that site instead.

In short you're the architect of your own problems.
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- Yeah...
 
Jabba said:
- Yeah...
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So why don't you learn and change?

All you have to do is drop the idea of putting this on your blog, listen to the people here, realise that you're entirely wrong and start over with an open mind. Had you done this right off the bat this would've been over three years ago.
 
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