UK General Election

ddt said:
You would think that an opposition party that is in disarray, is confused over its leadership, and is way down in the polls, would rather wait until the planned date for the next election so that they can get their ducks in a row.
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That would require Corbyn to say "We can't possibly win a general election under my leadership, so are declining the chance to put our case to the electorate". Not something a party leader wants to say.

(Maybe there'll be a backbench rebellion of labour MP's)
 
Garrison said:
She's using the democratic system to achieve an undemocratic end, that is avoid any serious scrutiny of her policies........
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Huh? There'll be a manifesto, you know, and you'll be able to buy one. We have a free press which will pick through it word by word. Could there possibly be any more serious scrutiny?
 
And with this, the Tories are going to be in charge for a generation. There is no party that can oppose them.
 
Giz said:
Right. Going to the electorate to ask for a mandate is undemocratic.

Do you know what demos means?
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No she's doing this to bury the opposition from her own backbenches, she failed to block parliamentary scrutiny of the Brexit deal so now she wants to make sure that scrutiny amounts to nothing more than a rubber stamp. It does parallel Turkey in that democratic means are being used to achieve an undemocratic goal.
 
Giz said:
That would require Corbyn to say "We can't possibly win a general election under my leadership, so are declining the chance to put our case to the electorate". Not something a party leader wants to say.

(Maybe there'll be a backbench rebellion of labour MP's)
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No, it just means he'd have to admit that they can't win a GE right now. In three years time, though, the whole British electorate will have become convinced of Corbyn's brilliance. :rolleyes:
 
Garrison said:
No she's doing this to bury the opposition from her own backbenches, she failed to block parliamentary scrutiny of the Brexit deal so now she wants to make sure that scrutiny amounts to nothing more than a rubber stamp. It does parallel Turkey in that democratic means are being used to achieve an undemocratic goal.
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This.

(the difference with Turkey is that she'll not be so undemocratic to abuse the state apparatus for her campaign or to rig the vote).
 
MikeG said:
Some will return to the Tories, and some will stay with UKIP. Ukip will lose lots of votes to the Tories as a result of Brexit, but might gain a few from Labour because of Brexit.
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I reckon UKIP won't field candidates where they suspect they'll lose their deposits, which would probably mean the Tories gain. We could be looking at years of unbroken Tory rule, which I find terrifying as one of those demonised disabled persons reliant on benefits.
 
ddt said:
No, it just means he'd have to admit that they can't win a GE right now. In three years time, though, the whole British electorate will have become convinced of Corbyn's brilliance. :rolleyes:
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Well the nightmare scenario is that Corbyn argues that he just needed more time to get his message across and May was scared of that and so ran for the polls. Chuck in some denunciations of disloyalty inside the party and he could hang on to the leadership.:(
 
ddt said:
May cited as one of the reasons for this early elections: "Labour threatened to vote against the final agreement with the EU".

Wait-a-minute.

That she thinks this is a problem implies that she views the final vote Parliament will have over the agreement as a foregone conclusion: anyone should vote in favour, and now already promise to do so, whatever may come. So why vote at all if you think the function of Parliament is the only be a bunch of yes-(wo)men?

This puts her in the same league, in democratic views, as Erdogan and Putin.
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That's always been her line. "The time for division is over. We should all come together now (and do exactly what I want, you plebs)".
 
ddt said:
This.

(the difference with Turkey is that she'll not be so undemocratic to abuse the state apparatus for her campaign or to rig the vote).
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Well May faces an opposition that couldn't organize the proverbial **** up in a brewery and she can count on 3/4 of the press backing her so long as she promises Brexit at any price. Heck even some of those I would expect to oppose her will be on the fence given the alternative...
 
Agatha said:
I reckon UKIP won't field candidates where they suspect they'll lose their deposits, which would probably mean the Tories gain. We could be looking at years of unbroken Tory rule, which I find terrifying as one of those demonised disabled persons reliant on benefits.
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This is what is so bad about Corbyn and his supporters - they prevent there being a credible opposition, which is bad for democracy and governance.
 
Squeegee Beckenheim said:
That's always been her line. "The time for division is over. We should all come together now (and do exactly what I want, you plebs)".
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When people were talking about parliamentary sovereignty I think she misheard it as parliamentary sovereign...

Giz said:
This is what is so bad about Corbyn and his supporters - they prevent there being a credible opposition, which is bad for democracy and governance.
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This is the thing, during the Brexit referendum Corbyn was either massively inept or he deliberately undermined official Labour policy in supporting Remain, either way he should have been gone and yet here he is simply nodding though every stupid idea May comes up with.
 
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Garrison said:
This is the thing, during the Brexit referendum Corbyn was either massively inept or he deliberately undermined official Labour policy in supporting Remain, either way he should have been gone and yet here he is simply nodding though every stupid idea May comes up with.
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I don't know what's to be done. There's three groups:

- The UK electorate (generally somewhat sane)
- The parliamentary labour party (generally somewhat sane)
- Momentum/Union Leadership/Labour Party Members (support Corbyn*)

* aka not sane

The third group show no inclination to admit they are wrong... which begs the question, even if Corbyn resigns after a general election loss... do we just see McDonnell take over... ?
 
Giz said:
I don't know what's to be done. There's three groups:

- The UK electorate (generally somewhat sane)
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Sanity is not the issue here, gullibility is. Every last promise made by the Leave campaign last year has been broken, May has done so many U-turns you would think she was auditioning for Fast and the Furious 9 and yet she still has a commanding lead.


- The parliamentary labour party (generally somewhat sane)

- Momentum/Union Leadership/Labour Party Members (support Corbyn*)

* aka not sane

The third group show no inclination to admit they are wrong... which begs the question, even if Corbyn resigns after a general election loss... do we just see McDonnell take over... ?
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My issue is not with Corbyn's being left wing, it's with his being inept and having a huge pile of dirty laundry just waiting to be aired in the press.
 
ddt said:
Good point. That, again, though, sounds just like Erdogan.
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And Obama said "elections have consequences" - is he like Erdogan too?

How about Pierre Trudeau: "A man who tries to please all men by weakening his position or compromising his beliefs, in the end has neither position nor beliefs" - that is like Erdogan dialled up to 110%!!!1! No compromise - do exactly what I want!1!!

Oh, how about this one - a real Erdogan gem:
"Democracy means government by discussion, but it is only effective if you can stop people talking." - Oh wait, that was Clement Attlee.


All politicians (other than Corbyn) try to get their vision implemented in practical ways. That doesn't mean they are quasi-fascist.
 
Giz said:
And Obama said "elections have consequences" - is he like Erdogan too?

How about Pierre Trudeau: "A man who tries to please all men by weakening his position or compromising his beliefs, in the end has neither position nor beliefs" - that is like Erdogan dialled up to 110%!!!1! No compromise - do exactly what I want!1!!

Oh, how about this one - a real Erdogan gem:
"Democracy means government by discussion, but it is only effective if you can stop people talking." - Oh wait, that was Clement Attlee.
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ETA: Just reread these and realized hat none of them seem to have any relevance to the matter at hand. Obama's statement reads as a statement of fact. Trudeau's simply appears to mean you should stand by your beliefs, well May has demonstrated there is pretty much nothing she won't flip flop on for personal power. Attlee's point was surely that sooner or later the debate has to stop and a decision has to be made, which again May has a poor track record on.


All politicians (other than Corbyn) try to get their vision implemented in practical ways. That doesn't mean they are quasi-fascist.
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Unless of course they've made it explicitly clear they oppose scrutiny of their actions by the courts or parliament and actively seek to block it, how about then?
 
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