• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

JFK Conspiracy Theories IV: The One With The Whales

Status
Not open for further replies.
MicahJava said:
If you didn't see the rest of the thread, the basic fact that the right cerebellum in the official brain photographs isn't torn open from a bullet tumbling in and out of it means that it could not have exited the top-right side of the head, thus there were two head shots, one of which just brushed past the rear of the brain and hit the floor of the skull.
Click to expand...

The medical evidence in this case has been pored over by multiple panels of experts in multiple investigations, and the x-rays and photographs have been publicly available for nearly 40 years.

How many experts endorse your opinion? Can you name them for me?
 
Here is all (or most) of the material where Dr. Burkley (Kennedy's personal physician and autopsy witness who verified the face sheet and death certificate) expressed that he believed or suspected multiple shooters, at least twice suggesting two head shots.

1967 oral history interview:

McHUGH: "I see. Do your conclusions differ at all with the Warren report of the circumstances or cause of death?"

BURKLEY: "My conclusion in regard to the cause of death was the bullet wound which involved the skull. The discussion as to whether a previous bullet also enters into it, but as far as the cause of death the immediate cause was unquestionably the bullet which shattered the brain and the calvariurm."

McHUGH: "I see. The brain and the what?"

BURKLEY: "And the skull, calvarium."

MCHUGH: "I see. Do you agree with the Warren Report on the number of bullets that entered the President's body?"

BURKLEY: "I would not care to be quoted on that."

https://web.archive.org/web/20160317173917/http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/burkley.htm

1977 HSCA interview report:

...DR. BURKLEY said the doctors didn't section the brain and if it had been done, it might be able to prove whether or not there were two bullets. DR. BURKLEY thinks there was one but concedes of the possibility of there having been two.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=600&relPageId=5&search=%22concedes_of%20the%20possibility%20of%20there%20having%20been%20two%22

Burkley's affidavit to the HSCA:

Had the Warren Commission deemed to call me, I would have stated why I retained the brain and the possibility of two bullets having wounded President John F. Kennedy's brain would have been eliminated.

http://www.kenrahn.com/Marsh/Autopsy/BURKLEY.TXT

Official memo from HSCA staffer Richard Sprauge:

From: Richard Sprague To: File March 18, 1977

William F. Illig, an attorney from Erie, Pa., contacted me in Philadelphia this date, advising me that he represents Dr. George G. Burkley, Vice Admiral, U.S. Navy retired, who had been the personal physician for presidents Kennedy and Johnson.

Mr. Illig stated that he had a luncheon meeting with his client, Dr. Burkley, this date to take up some tax matters. Dr. Burkley advised him that although he, Burkley, had signed the death certificate of President Kennedy in Dallas, he had never been interviewed and that he has information in the Kennedy assassination indicating that others besides Oswald must have participated.

Illig advised me that his client is a very quiet, unassuming person, not wanting any publicity whatsoever, but he, Illig, was calling me with his client’s consent and that his client would talk to me in Washington.

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/numbered_files/box_23/180-10086-10295/html/180-10086-10295_0002a.htm

Author Henry Hurt wrote in his book Reasonable Doubt of a short interview with Burkley:

It is significant that Dr. Burkley had been with the President in Dallas, with him in the Parkland Hospital emergency room, with his body as it was flown east, and present during the autopsy. It is also significant that even though he was the only doctor present both at Parkland and at Bethesda, Dr. Burkley's testimony was never taken by the Warren Commission, nor was it taken later by the House Select Committee.

In 1982 Dr. Burkley told the author in a telephone conversation that he believed that President Kennedy's assassination was the result of a conspiracy.

This startling statement, after so long a silence, amplified an obscure exchange Dr. Burkley had in an oral-history interview on file at the Kennedy Library in Boston.

And also wrote in an endnote:

When he originally telephoned the author, Dr. Burkley expressed his willingness to discuss various matters concerning the assassination. He asked for a letter detailing the areas the author wished to discuss. Dr. Burkley acknowledged receipt of the letter with a letter of his own. Two months later, the author proposed a meeting with Dr. Burkley to discuss the points. The doctor responded with an abrupt refusal to discuss any aspect of the case.


http://krusch.com/books/kennedy/Reasonable_Doubt.pdf

In Michael L. Kurtz's book The JFK Assassination Debates: Lone Gunman Versus Conspiracy, it also says this:

...When informed that if this were true, then the assassin who fired that shot must have been located in front of the president, Burkley stated that he always believed in a conspiracy, a remark that he had previously made to another assassin researcher, Henry Hurt. However, he quickly terminated the conversation without providing any details.


https://i.imgur.com/saphV7V.png
 
traxy said:
The medical evidence in this case has been pored over by multiple panels of experts in multiple investigations, and the x-rays and photographs have been publicly available for nearly 40 years.

How many experts endorse your opinion? Can you name them for me?
Click to expand...

The lack of severe damage to the right cerebellum is one of the stated reasons the cowlick entry theory was fabricated. They didn't see that the next logical explanation would be that a bullet just barely touched that area of the brain, hitting the base of the skull and not having any relation to the large head wound. If a bullet entered the EOP location and exited the top-right side of the head, it would have had to tumble in and out of the right cerebellum. The right cerebellum in the official brain photographs is only disrupted. 100% of forensic pathologists agree that when a bullet enters the brain, it causes severe damage to the area it entered. The cowlick entry theory has been the biggest obfuscation to a proper investigation of the medical evidence. The Clark Panel and the HSCA demonstrably obfuscated to support their theory. Dr. Humes was coerced into testifying that the entry wound was at the cowlick (only to later revert back to his original EOP location). The artist who drew the sketch of one of the BOH photographs, Ida Dox, was even coerced into drawing the cowlick spot to look more like an entry wound.
 
Last edited:
You didn't answer my question Micah.

This case has had more experts examine the evidence than pretty much any murder case in recorded history. How many of them came to the conclusion that there were 2 headshots?
 
traxy said:
You didn't answer my question Micah.

This case has had more experts examine the evidence than pretty much any murder case in recorded history. How many of them came to the conclusion that there were 2 headshots?
Click to expand...

Traxy, if there was an entry wound in the original EOP location, there is no other option.

If we listen to autopsy witnesses like Richard Lipsey, the autopsy surgeons did indeed believe or strongly suspect that Kennedy was hit in the head twice.

We have the Belmont FBI memo, contemporary to the time of the autopsy, which casually mentions a bullet "lodged behind the President's ear": https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=707

Even if we say there was no bullet lodged behind the ear, what could this be referring to other than the EOP wound? The 6.5mm fragment behind the right eye? If they didn't think the bullet exited top-right side of the head, what did they think the large head wound was? A craniotomy?

Then we have Dr. Burkley, like I just showed above.

Sorry, but my experts were there with the body.
 
If the autopsy surgeons "strongly suspected" that Kennedy was hit in the head twice, they have never once mentioned it in any of the statements they've made.

So I can infer from your answer that not a single expert in 53 years has ever endorsed the 2 headshots explanation.
 
MicahJava said:
Here is all (or most) of the material where Dr. Burkley (Kennedy's personal physician and autopsy witness who verified the face sheet and death certificate) expressed that he believed or suspected multiple shooters, at least twice suggesting two head shots.
Click to expand...

Your reading comprehension is at fault. His actual statements make it clear that, while he cannot eliminate the possibility of two based on the evidence he has available, he believes that there was probably only one head shot. The rest is hearsay, all of which is traceable to one specific remark reported by the author of a book promoting a conspiracy. And it's rather telling that he quite clearly says that, had the Warren Commission spoken to him, "the possibility of two bullets having wounded President John F. Kennedy's brain would have been eliminated." Not exactly a claim that there were two bullets, but rather the opposite, no?

Dave
 
Dave Rogers said:
Your reading comprehension is at fault. His actual statements make it clear that, while he cannot eliminate the possibility of two based on the evidence he has available, he believes that there was probably only one head shot. The rest is hearsay, all of which is traceable to one specific remark reported by the author of a book promoting a conspiracy. And it's rather telling that he quite clearly says that, had the Warren Commission spoken to him, "the possibility of two bullets having wounded President John F. Kennedy's brain would have been eliminated." Not exactly a claim that there were two bullets, but rather the opposite, no?

Dave
Click to expand...

From his other statements, we can infer that he was holding back expressing just how much he knew.
 
Dave Rogers said:
You just referenced the testimony the HSCA got from him.

Dave
Click to expand...

That was an unsworn interview summary based on a short phone call to Burkley while he was at a golf club. The most important autopsy witness who "had information indicating others besides Oswald must have been involved" should've been listened to more carefully.
 
Basically it comes down to this. Either the autopsy surgeons had a hard time placing the exact entrance wound location (likely due to the condition of Kennedy's head and the fact that the lead autopsy surgeon had never done this type of work before), OR those very same autopsy surgeons, along with every other set of eyes that has ever examined the medical evidence somehow missed a second entry wound in the head.

Which explanation seems more plausible to you?
 
MicahJava said:
From his other statements, we can infer that he was holding back expressing just how much he knew.
Click to expand...

Read as: I've got nothing, but desperately want to believe in the fairy tale.

Two gunshot wounds to the head would be easily determined by the physical evidence, which the autopsy and medical reports do not note.

I've seen more than one multiple gsw to the head, and even with common handgun calibers it's obvious and not overlooked.Had JFK taken two 6.5 (or any common service rifle caliber round) to the head there wouldn't have been much left intact to examine.

Google "multiple gunshot wounds to the head" and select images. They've got some.
 
MicahJava said:
That was an unsworn interview summary based on a short phone call to Burkley while he was at a golf club. The most important autopsy witness who "had information indicating others besides Oswald must have been involved" should've been listened to more carefully.
Click to expand...

Geez, which "Autopsy Witness" might that be? The one you agree with based on your confirmation bias?
 
BStrong said:
Read as: I've got nothing, but desperately want to believe in the fairy tale.

Two gunshot wounds to the head would be easily determined by the physical evidence, which the autopsy and medical reports do not note.

I've seen more than one multiple gsw to the head, and even with common handgun calibers it's obvious and not overlooked.Had JFK taken two 6.5 (or any common service rifle caliber round) to the head there wouldn't have been much left intact to examine.

Google "multiple gunshot wounds to the head" and select images. They've got some.
Click to expand...

BStrong, if a bullet entered the skull at the original EOP location, the lack of severe brain damage behind that area means that entry could have no track to the large head wound. The large head wound could be tangential.

We don't have x-rays or photographs showing the floor of the skull, but there are witness statements saying that area was fractured, as if a bullet hit or even exited there. There were some on the medical panels who suggested the air in the throat seen on the torso X-rays could be from a base fracture. A couple of others said the air in the throat could somehow be from the tracheotomy, while Dr. Lattimer proudly proclaimed that the air in the throat was a bullet track (on the mistaken belief that it meant a track from the back wound to the throat wound, when it would actually indicate a track from a head wound to the throat wound).
 
Last edited:
traxy said:
Basically it comes down to this. Either the autopsy surgeons had a hard time placing the exact entrance wound location (likely due to the condition of Kennedy's head and the fact that the lead autopsy surgeon had never done this type of work before), OR those very same autopsy surgeons, along with every other set of eyes that has ever examined the medical evidence somehow missed a second entry wound in the head.

Which explanation seems more plausible to you?
Click to expand...

Traxy, Dr. Finck was an expert who participated in hundreds of gunshot victim autopsies. Finck participated in the autopsy at a later time, and he always swore the entry was in the original EOP location. How could he have seen this hypothetical cowlick entry if that part of the skull was almost certainly taken out (to remove the brain) before he arrived there?

I am not advocating for a second entry. The large head would could be tangential.
 
BStrong said:
Geez, which "Autopsy Witness" might that be? The one you agree with based on your confirmation bias?
Click to expand...

Every autopsy participant who saw or heard of the entry wound said it was low in the head. Precisely zero autopsy participants placed the entry wound high above the level of the ears. Having the entry wound in it's original location low in the head means more than one headshot, if we go by the official medical evidence.
 
MicahJava said:
Every autopsy participant who saw or heard of the entry wound said it was low in the head. Precisely zero autopsy participants placed the entry wound high above the level of the ears. Having the entry wound in it's original location low in the head means more than one headshot, if we go by the official medical evidence.
Click to expand...

Or it could mean that the longstanding archenemy of conspiracy, aka human fallibility, is involved.

It's not near as much fun as playing investigator on the 'net, but it's much better rooted in reality.
 
BStrong said:
Or it could mean that the longstanding archenemy of conspiracy, aka human fallibility, is involved.

It's not near as much fun as playing investigator on the 'net, but it's much better rooted in reality.
Click to expand...

BStrong, how do you get from point A to point B without demolishing the cerebellum?

Nt7wEul.jpg


The right cerebellum was only disrupted:

4AVxVnI.png
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom