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President Trump: Part II

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Skeptic Ginger said:
I think you'd be very hard pressed to find a voter who voted against Clinton that didn't buy into much or all of the false narrative.
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And I cited a CNN interview where voters expressed the belief that Trump would do something for them, and Clinton wouldn't. I think a lot of Trump voters felt that way. And Clinton didn't give them a basis to counter that belief.


Skeptic Ginger said:
You ignore the very intense and decades long Clinton trashing using false accusations.

No other politician has been subject to the GOP obsession like the Clintons have been. You can't compare it to a normal situation.

Add to that Trump's incredibly deceitful campaign and you have a perfect storm.
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You can debate to what degree the Clintons have contributed to the narrative. Even if we stipulate no crimes were proven in the email business, the fact is that she went to great lengths to evade public records requirements, and then she lied about it on multiple occasions. That supported the narrative about her that she can't be trusted, and that's what hurt her. It doesn't matter what anybody else may or may not have done (about which there is dispute); she was the one running for President.

But once again, you're saying "It's all about her." What theme did she offer that compared to "Make America Great Again?" What hope did she offer to voters when the other guy was promising to bring back their jobs? What was Clinton's message to voters who didn't already support her? One sentence, please.

The Democrats made a big mistake when they anointed her, maybe as far back as 2008, driving other, stronger potential candidates from the field. Then Clinton made a bigger mistake when she thought she could float to the White House on the shoulders of her acolytes. The Democratic leadership gave us Clinton. And Clinton gave us Trump. And now here we are.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/clinton-campaign-neglect_us_582cacb0e4b058ce7aa8b861
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...2016/12/the_myth_of_the_rust_belt_revolt.html
http://www.slate.com/articles/busin...voters_racism_with_economics_she_blew_it.html
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/11/why-hillary-clinton-lost/507704/
 
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Arcade22 said:
That could easily leave them open to primary challenges and since American politics is mainly about self-enrichment most of them aren't going to risk losing their party's nomination and their lively-hood.

This is one the core problems with American national politics: individual politicians have to constantly worry about whether or not they will be reelected to congress rather than doing politics. I mean they spend roughly half of the time on electioneering and looking for donations rather than legislating.
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I think that is very simplistic analysis of American Politics, but that House members of both parties spend half their time campaigning is well taken.
I think the term of a house member should be increased to four years.
 
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Bob001 said:
And I cited a CNN interview where voters expressed the belief that Trump would do something for them, and Clinton wouldn't. I think a lot of Trump voters felt that way. And Clinton didn't give them a basis to counter that belief.
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Because Clinton was limited by reality. Trump was perfectly willing to lie outrageously, promising to bring back jobs that are gone forever, where Clinton was trying to explain they need new jobs. People chose to believe a comforting lie and appeared immune to facts, what exactly was the counter Clinton missed?
 
Garrison said:
Because Clinton was limited by reality. Trump was perfectly willing to lie outrageously, promising to bring back jobs that are gone forever, where Clinton was trying to explain they need new jobs. People chose to believe a comforting lie and appeared immune to facts, what exactly was the counter Clinton missed?
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By explaining in a clear, comprehensible way why Trump couldn't keep his outrageous promises and setting out a clear, comprehensible and realistic plan to rebuild those communities. "Trump is bad" was not a sufficient response. And her communication skills, after a lifetime in politics, are strangely deficient. For her to go to West Virginia (!) and say "We're gonna put a lot of coal miners and coal mines out of business!" pretty much obliterated anything she said later about new jobs and new industries. And she did that a lot.
http://www.motherjones.com/blue-marble/2016/03/hillary-clinton-will-probably-regret-comment
 
Bob001 said:
By explaining in a clear, comprehensible way why Trump couldn't keep his outrageous promises and setting out a clear, comprehensible and realistic plan to rebuild those communities.
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And why in election where Trump repeatedly lied and his supporters were seemingly only interested in fact free policies expressed 140 characters at a time do you think people were going to listen. I realize you have some desperate drive to exonerate Trump supporters from responsibility for the actions of the Trump presidency. Trump supporters chose 'alt-facts', they can blame no one else for doing so.
 
I think you have to desntiguish between the hard core Trump supporters and those who held their noses and voted for Trump because he seemed better then Hilary.
I am convinced a lot of the latter felt that a lot of Trump's behavior and opinions were just Trump the salesman doing anything to get elected and he would pivot and become more reasonable once he was elected. Not that they know that there will be no pivot a lot them are having a bad case of Buyer's Regret.
 
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Garrison said:
And why in election where Trump repeatedly lied and his supporters were seemingly only interested in fact free policies expressed 140 characters at a time do you think people were going to listen. I realize you have some desperate drive to exonerate Trump supporters from responsibility for the actions of the Trump presidency. Trump supporters chose 'alt-facts', they can blame no one else for doing so.
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And, although I voted for her, Hilary was far from a ideal candidate.
 
Garrison said:
And why in election where Trump repeatedly lied and his supporters were seemingly only interested in fact free policies expressed 140 characters at a time do you think people were going to listen.
....
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And why do you think Trump voters didn't listen to Clinton? Because they didn't believe her and they didn't trust her. They didn't have any trouble casting their votes for Obama -- twice.
 
Bob001 said:
And I cited a CNN interview where voters expressed the belief that Trump would do something for them, and Clinton wouldn't. I think a lot of Trump voters felt that way. And Clinton didn't give them a basis to counter that belief.
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Unless you interviewed them more fully about what all went into their decisions, all you have are people saying Trump is their guy.

Bob001 said:
[snipped the usual Clinton BS]

The Democrats made a big mistake when they anointed her, maybe as far back as 2008, driving other, stronger potential candidates from the field. Then Clinton made a bigger mistake when she thought she could float to the White House on the shoulders of her acolytes. The Democratic leadership gave us Clinton. And Clinton gave us Trump.
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********!
Bob001 said:
[snipped sources that only support your opinion and only partially.]
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Right there, "anointed", false narrative. Sanders and Clinton ran a hard fought very close race. Just because a lot of the DNC leaders supported Clinton is not evidence of that bull crap charge Clinton was anointed.

I'm not going to debate Clinton with you. It's clearly a waste of both of our time.
 
dudalb said:
I think a lot of the "Soft" Trump voters are already having a bad case of Buyer's Regret.....
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I do so hope this is true. Please tell me the alt-right who got in by deceit and a few other unfortunate advantages are not really a rising power in this country and in the world.
 
How much longer are we going to be hearing "Let's just wait and see..."?

I saw most of this coming more than two months ago.
 
Garrison said:
Because Clinton was limited by reality. Trump was perfectly willing to lie outrageously, promising to bring back jobs that are gone forever, where Clinton was trying to explain they need new jobs. People chose to believe a comforting lie and appeared immune to facts, what exactly was the counter Clinton missed?
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This was a yuuuge part of the problem. Though I do think with better marketing experts in Clinton's campaign a lot of that false messaging could have been better overcome.
 
Bob001 said:
By explaining in a clear, comprehensible way why Trump couldn't keep his outrageous promises and setting out a clear, comprehensible and realistic plan to rebuild those communities. "Trump is bad" was not a sufficient response. And her communication skills, after a lifetime in politics, are strangely deficient. For her to go to West Virginia (!) and say "We're gonna put a lot of coal miners and coal mines out of business!" pretty much obliterated anything she said later about new jobs and new industries. And she did that a lot.
http://www.motherjones.com/blue-marble/2016/03/hillary-clinton-will-probably-regret-comment
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Yes, there were many cherry picked and edited statements used against Clinton. That's what the GOP is good at.

And unfortunately it's not something the Democrats have been effective countering.

But there you go with your narrow view of the events in this election. You bought the narrative Clinton was out to screw the coal miners when had you bothered to look at her actual platform, or had Clinton done a better job selling it, you would know that sound bite was a distortion of the facts.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
.....
Right there, "anointed", false narrative. Sanders and Clinton ran a hard fought very close race. Just because a lot of the DNC leaders supported Clinton is not evidence of that bull crap charge Clinton was anointed.
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And how many superdelegates did Clinton start with? And how much money from the DNC? And how many Democratic leaders sneered at Sanders as a shaggy-haired interloper who had no right to run?

Skeptic Ginger said:
.....
I'm not going to debate Clinton with you. It's clearly a waste of both of our time.
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Especially when you reject evidence that conflicts with your adoration of Hillary.
 
dudalb said:
I think you have to desntiguish between the hard core Trump supporters and those who held their noses and voted for Trump because he seemed better then Hilary.
I am convinced a lot of the latter felt that a lot of Trump's behavior and opinions were just Trump the salesman doing anything to get elected and he would pivot and become more reasonable once he was elected. Not that they know that there will be no pivot a lot them are having a bad case of Buyer's Regret.
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Again, I hope the latter group is larger than they appear at the moment.
 
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