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President Trump: Part II

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For the near hopeless cases who still buy propaganda from the Washington Pest, here's a bit of perspective about what went on at State.

GREAT: Victoria "Cookie Monster" Nuland is finally gone!!! :yahoo
 
Parsman said:
If you are right, and the denigration of Clinton has been going on since the 80s, and she managed to lose the nomination to Obama in the 2008 race, why did she or her team not have a better plan to tackle the defects in her campaigning? That would seem again to indicate that she was a poor candidate who was put forward just because it was her turn ("buggins turn we would say in Scots) with no thought to how effective she would be against any Republican nominee.
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Agreed.

[BTW, nice to see some returning members these days. I've noticed a handful. Perhaps it's the recent upheavals in the geopolitical weather?]
 
Joe Random said:
One other thing to consider is that the swayed voters might not themselves have been the target of pejoratives, but saw the over-use of pejoratives by one side as indicative of a lack of meaningful criticism. It's of course not the case that there isn't meaningful criticism of Trump (that shouldn't need to be said), or that meaningful criticisms weren't made. But that perhaps there was too much reliance on the 'morally reprehensible' angle for our current times.

I watched Michelle O's last speech before the elections. Never having heard her speak at length I was fairly impressed and thought she did a good job. At one specific point, however, she aimed her comments at men and asked something like "what would we say to our wives and daughters if we wound up electing this person (Trump)?". Even when I thought odds were still safely on Clinton's side that moment made me cringe a bit. There are so many viable criticisms to make of Trump, why on earth would you play the guilt card?

"What would we say to our spouses or children if we had elected the man who started a shooting war over a Tweet?" or "What would we say to our unemployed masses after we had elected the man who ran our country the way he ran his bankrupted businesses?" - that was, IMO, the angle to take. Substantive criticism of ability and temperament to do the job.

Then again, this is nothing more than Monday Morning QBing on my part, as, while I can think of reasons why someone might have voted Trump which would appear rational to them if not others, I'm still in shock at the number of people for whom those reasons were compelling.
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Personally, I saw a lot of people (on this board and outside of it) who gave lip service to acknowledging how bad Trump is, but felt that went without saying. These same people, however, were more than happy to jump all over any perceived faults of Clinton, or even make things up (alcohol problems was one bandied about on this forum). When the majority of the criticism and attacks are directed at the better candidate, low information voters don't see the 'of course Trump is bad, that goes without saying,' because it often wasn't said.

My Monday morning qb'ing says this had more of an impact than calling racists, racist.
 
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Argumemnon said:
Several of us have already made the effort to A) find out where we stand on the spectrum and B) post it here for comparison.

How about you man up and do the same, doing something productive for once.
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I ran it and landed smack center of the lower left quadrant... what the hell?

I'm not even radical in any of my beliefs. I'm fairly centrist overall.
I was sitting here looking up to the right at UKIP wondering... why you so far away? :eek:

Hell, the Green Party was a square to the right of my position.
I think my atheism skewed it, I don't know.
I thought all US positions were defacto "right wing". I'm certainly not too "bleeding heart". :boggled:

Well... it is a UK site, and associated analysis/shift.
Maybe logger (and others) have already tried it and wondered why they were still left of Hitler (he's one of the yardsticks). :p
 
wareyin said:
Personally, I saw a lot of people (on this board and outside of it) who gave lip service to acknowledging how bad Trump is, but felt that went without saying. These same people, however, were more than happy to jump all over any perceived faults of Clinton, or even make things up (alcohol problems was one bandied about on this forum). When the majority of the criticism and attacks are directed at the better candidate, low information voters don't see the 'of course Trump is bad, that goes without saying,' because it often wasn't said.

My Monday morning qb'ing says this had more of an impact than calling racists, racist.
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Well, IMO there was no one single reason things went the way they did. It wasn't racists, it wasn't a years-long assault on Clinton, it wasn't even the last minute FBI thing. A number of different factors came together to give us the turd sandwich we've been served. And I too saw quite a lot of inane reasons for opposing Clinton, just like I did for Romney, Obama, and Bush.

I will not come close to claiming to know how much weight any one factor was in the overall result, so I wouldn't argue against your position that the shallow criticism against Clinton counted more than the false cries of 'racist' against Trump supporters. My only point in the above is that reducing the effect of those false cries to a simplistic 'voted because their feelings were hurt' doesn't really get at the heart of who those false cries influence and how.

Hopefully everyone can learn from our past mistakes so we don't have a repeat of this in 4 years. Much of what I've seen and heard since the election doesn't fill me with optimism, but it's early still, so getting to a saner level of cross-ideology discourse might still happen.
 
Joe Random said:
Well, IMO there was no one single reason things went the way they did. It wasn't racists, it wasn't a years-long assault on Clinton, it wasn't even the last minute FBI thing. A number of different factors came together to give us the turd sandwich we've been served. And I too saw quite a lot of inane reasons for opposing Clinton, just like I did for Romney, Obama, and Bush.

I will not come close to claiming to know how much weight any one factor was in the overall result, so I wouldn't argue against your position that the shallow criticism against Clinton counted more than the false cries of 'racist' against Trump supporters. My only point in the above is that reducing the effect of those false cries to a simplistic 'voted because their feelings were hurt' doesn't really get at the heart of who those false cries influence and how.

Hopefully everyone can learn from our past mistakes so we don't have a repeat of this in 4 years. Much of what I've seen and heard since the election doesn't fill me with optimism, but it's early still, so getting to a saner level of cross-ideology discourse might still happen.
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I don't have a lot of faith that things will change. Those who wanted to only hear "false" cries of 'racism' are still whining about it, today. We have posters who are well aware that Clinton said only half of Trump supporters, yet they frequently distort that to "half of the country". If even otherwise intelligent, skeptical posters here can't avoid thinking like that, why would we think the general public could?
 
NoahFence said:
Nicky Haley to the UN:

For those who don't have our back, we're taking names.

She just threatened the UN.
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The way we are going,we won't have a friend left on the planet earth a year from now.
Except for Maybe Putin, and that might be a master slave relataionship.
 
uke2se said:
Nope. Again, this is shifting the blame from the people who voted for the orange menace. They are the ones at fault here. Nobody else. The democrats could have ran a potted plant, and I would still blame the people who voted for Trump for Trump getting elected.
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QFT
 
Arcade22 said:
... I mean what's he going to fail at next? ... Saying that the Illuminati is undermining his presidency by portraying him badly in the media?
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Oooo, we should start that rumor and see if we can get Trump to believe it.

The rest of your post was very well said.
 
Meadmaker said:
No.

Clinton was simply echoing lots of rhetoric already in use, by herself and others. There was already a trend to label huge swaths of the American public as deplorable bigots. If Clinton had distanced herself from that trend, rather than embracing it, 1.3 million would be on the low side of my estimate of votes changed.

Her husband had a Sister Soulja moment. She had a basket of deplorables moment. There's a reason her husband won and she lost.
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And if sounds like you are having a 'don't blame me for my Trump vote' moment. :rolleyes:

Did the devil make you do it?
 
Parsman said:
If you are right, and the denigration of Clinton has been going on since the 80s, and she managed to lose the nomination to Obama in the 2008 race, why did she or her team not have a better plan to tackle the defects in her campaigning? That would seem again to indicate that she was a poor candidate who was put forward just because it was her turn ("buggins turn we would say in Scots) with no thought to how effective she would be against any Republican nominee.
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Yeah, well, he's not right.

Notice how this thread on POTUS Trump has shifted back into Clinton bashing?
 
Marcus said:
Just to save me the time of stating my position again, pretend I wrote this.
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Yes, we'll put you and Emily's cat in the category, "don't blame us, not our fault we bought the phony propaganda about Clinton and didn't realize just how bad Trump was. We blame Clinton." :rolleyes:
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Yes, we'll put you and Emily's cat in the category, "don't blame us, not our fault we bought the phony propaganda about Clinton and didn't realize just how bad Trump was. We blame Clinton." :rolleyes:
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Sigh.

Do you want to win the next election, or do you want to be arrogant and condescending enough that people vote Trump again?
 
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