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Who killed Meredith Kercher? part 23

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Knox and Sollecito were finally and definitively acquitted March 27, 2015 of the murder/rape charges by the Marasca CSC panel. That was almost 2 years ago.

There was some discussion that Mignini and/or others were going to take legal action against the Marasca decision. What is the status of such action(s), if indeed it (they) went forward?
 
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LOL. Really? I must have been confused by the fact that Chieffi remanded the matter to the lower court and then there was a subsequent supreme court decision in the very same case. So, if by "final" you mean "final except for the subsequent decision that ends the case", then yeah, I guess you're right. Otherwise, I'm afraid you're clueless.

Part of the Chieffi CSC panel judgment was a referral to an appeal court (Nencini) so of course it wasn't final.

The other part of the Chieffi judgment was confirmation of the Hellmann appeal court conviction of Knox for calunnia, which was a final decision. Except that Knox lodged a claim with the ECHR that the trial and conviction violated her rights under the Convention, and eventually, based on the case-law*, ECHR will find that Italy did violate her rights and she will be entitled to request a revision trial where all her Convention rights must be respected, in accordance with Italian Constitutional Court judgment 113 of 2011.

*And also the Boninsegna motivation report, which points out that her defense rights under the Italian Constitution were violated in the Nov. 5/6 interrogation.
 
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Wrong, wrong, wrong, if a CSC disagrees with a lower courts verdict, it broadly speaking must send it back down to the same level of court to reassess the issue again. All the CSC does is rubber stamp the verdict.

Marasca astonishingly overturned two guilty findings by each of the lower courts off its own bat, completely outside of its legal powers.

Perhaps you should race off to Rome and let them know this. HaHa
 
Wrong, wrong, wrong, if a CSC disagrees with a lower courts verdict, it broadly speaking must send it back down to the same level of court to reassess the issue again. All the CSC does is rubber stamp the verdict.

Marasca astonishingly overturned two guilty findings by each of the lower courts off its own bat, completely outside of its legal powers.

Vixen, you so funny.

:dl::dl:
 
Why can't we all just agree that no matter what really happened the Italian police and court system just totally ********** up whether or not a crime was committed by someone or by someone else - since that is the best anybody has here!!!!!!!!
 
Why can't we all just agree that no matter what really happened the Italian police and court system just totally ********** up whether or not a crime was committed by someone or by someone else - since that is the best anybody has here!!!!!!!!
Works for me. Mostly, I lurk and only post when something particularly egregious is posted. It makes me laugh when those egregious posts, so bizarre their content is, causes the originator to double down and insist upon their correctness.
 
Why can't we all just agree that no matter what really happened the Italian police and court system just totally ********** up whether or not a crime was committed by someone or by someone else - since that is the best anybody has here!!!!!!!!

That is simply not true. The Italian police identified the killer, arrested him within weeks and the court system convicted him with a significant and conclusive evidence. The case against Amanda and Raffaele is a fantasy constructed out of thin air. Your post seems to infer that Amanda and Raffaele are free simply because the police screwed up which isn't true.
 
Italian Constitution:

Art. 15
Freedom and confidentiality of correspondence and of every other form of
communication is inviolable.
Limitations may only be imposed by judicial decision stating the reasons and
in accordance with the guarantees provided by the law.

Thus this not mean that words written in one's own diary may not be given to unauthorized person(s) and published, of private information, without one's consent, even if one is a prisoner?

The judgment of the Court of Milan in 2014 apparently recognized this provision of the Italian Constitution in finding against Sarzanini and her publisher.
 
More Italian Constitution:

Art. 24
Anyone may bring cases before a court of law in order to protect their rights under civil and administrative law.Defense is an inviolable right at every stage and instance of legal proceedings.The poor are entitled by law to proper means for action or defense in all
courts.
The law shall define the conditions and forms of reparation in case of judicial errors.

The second clause above is the foundation for the presence of a lawyer during an interrogation in Italy, for example, as expressed in CPP Articles 63 (person who makes an incriminating sentence during a witness interview is advised to appoint a lawyer and that an investigation will be started against him) and 64 (the suspect is interrogated in the presence of his lawyer).
 
More Italian Constitution:

Art. 28
Officials of the State or public agencies shall be directly responsible under
criminal, civil, and administrative law for acts committed in violation of
rights.
In such cases, civil liability shall extend to the State and to such public
agency.

With Article 24 of the Constitution, this Article shows that persons wrongfully detained and/or convicted are entitled to compensation.

In the CPP, compensation for unfair detention is covered under Articles 314 and 315; for miscarriage of justice, under Articles 643 through 647.
 
Why can't we all just agree that no matter what really happened the Italian police and court system just totally ********** up whether or not a crime was committed by someone or by someone else - since that is the best anybody has here!!!!!!!!

You may be unaware that Knox and Sollecito were finally and definitively acquitted of the rape and murder of Kercher by the Italian Supreme Court of Cassation on March 27, 2015.

There is no longer any case against them, and no criminal or civil case may be brought against them in the future for the facts of the case, according to Italian law.

Some posters on this forum may disagree with the final verdict of acquittal, but the Supreme Court of Cassation motivation report found no credible evidence to support guilt, which must be determined by proof beyond a reasonable doubt according to Italian law.

Rudy Guede remains the only person definitively convicted of the murder/rape of Kercher. His request for a revision trial was rejected by the Court of Appeal of Florence.
 
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The 1st chambers SC, as well as Nencini's court, made the contrary point.

They said that the fact that the item (bra clasp) is dirty, itself is not a reason for assuming that Sollecito's DNA is a likely result of contamination.

The SC had also stated (and this is res iudicata in the Meredith case) that the fact that pieces of evidence are imperfect, itself not an argument sufficient to dismiss the evidence, since their number, sitematicity and agreement logically overcomes their shortcomings.

So the clasp is dirty but this is not a sufficient reason to dismiss the piece of circumstantial evidence because in order to do that you would need to bring stronger evidence that Sollecito's DNA is the product of that contamination - so the SC 1st chambers said.



The above statements by the 1st chambers are final findings as by the law, they may be an example of why the trial records are quite important.

If this 'logic' hadn't actually become reality until M/B overturned it, this would be hysterical. Mach speaks of the PIP ignoring facts while the PGP is faithful to them. But let's look at the facts;

- The clasp is seen on day 1 of the investigation. This is clearly a sexual assault and here is a severed piece of bra clasp. It is, nonetheless, not collected.
- 46 days later, after numerous visits to the cottage and the complete undoing of the bedroom, the clasp is located in a different location. The SP now decide to collect it, but in doing so they violate numerous protocols;
(1) They collect it using visibly dirty gloves
(2) They rub the very metal hook where the DNA is found using the same dirty glove.
(3) They pass it around among the technicians there as if they can eyeball anything relevant in doing so.
(4) They put the clasp back down on the ground to photograph it.
(5) They only test the sample once.
(6) They improperly store the clasp, allowing it to rust and render it useless for further testing.

The court claims there is no source of Sollecito DNA that could have resulted in a transfer but they ignore the fact the exterior side of Meredith's bedroom door/frame/handle were never tested for DNA because (to paraphrase) the crime took place on the other side of the door. Clearly Sollecito's DNA had to be there since he had tried to break down and enter the room.

For all these reasons, and because other male contributors are detected, C&V rules the results unreliable. Hellmann agrees.

The collection process was so badly bungled it would have made the Keystone Kops blush.. it certainly caused the court audience to laugh. So what does the 1st Chamber and Nencini rule? No PROOF of contamination, therefore disregard all of the egregious mistakes made, shift the burden of proof to the defense and if they can't meet the challenge, then consider the results valid. Yeah, the PIP has blinders on... :covereyes

Then we have the Luminol traces.. ones that test negative for blood using TMB and negative for Meredith's DNA, but what does Nenini rule? ... there was a lot of blood in Meredith's room, which is in close proximity to where the traces were found, so what else could these traces be from? They argue if you can't prove what non-blood agent caused the results then we must accept they were made from Meredith's blood, completely disregarding the indisputable evidence that proves it can't be her blood.

To claim it is the PIP that doesn't want to focus on the facts is laughable.
 
That is simply not true. The Italian police identified the killer, arrested him within weeks and the court system convicted him with a significant and conclusive evidence. The case against Amanda and Raffaele is a fantasy constructed out of thin air. Your post seems to infer that Amanda and Raffaele are free simply because the police screwed up which isn't true.

I think it's enough to say the case against them was hopelessly flawed and incapable of ever sustaining a conviction beyond reasonable doubt by any standard, which was Grinder's more conservative opinion.

I've always tried to separate my opinion on "what really happened" (Rudy killed Meredith during a burglary gone bad, the police had an initial bad hunch and muscled corroborating statements out of three innocent suspects and found themselves hopelessly doubling down trying to salvage a failed case) - vs what we can conclude to very objective standards of law and science, which is we certainly cannot say the police investigation and prosecution's case removed any reasonable doubt about the student's involvement in the murder. Indeed the only people who object to the latter must and do invent massive conspiracies (judicial bribes, mafia interference, etc)
 
I think it's enough to say the case against them was hopelessly flawed and incapable of ever sustaining a conviction beyond reasonable doubt by any standard, which was Grinder's more conservative opinion.

I've always tried to separate my opinion on "what really happened" (Rudy killed Meredith during a burglary gone bad, the police had an initial bad hunch and muscled corroborating statements out of three innocent suspects and found themselves hopelessly doubling down trying to salvage a failed case) - vs what we can conclude to very objective standards of law and science, which is we certainly cannot say the police investigation and prosecution's case removed any reasonable doubt about the student's involvement in the murder. Indeed the only people who object to the latter must and do invent massive conspiracies (judicial bribes, mafia interference, etc)

Agreed. The case against Guede was clearly proven, albeit the chronology and motivation can not be definitively pinned down. What was hopelessly bungled was aspects of the investigation/prosecution whose sole motivation was to link Amanda and Raffaele to the crime. If the police/prosecution had admitted their mistake of implicating Amanda/Raffaele/Lumumba without even looking at the forensic evidence, and then followed where the unquestionable evidence found at the scene led them, Guede would have received a 30 year sentence, Amanda/Raffaele/Lumumba would never have been accused and no one would be talking about how badly the case had been handled.
 
If this 'logic' hadn't actually become reality until M/B overturned it, this would be hysterical. Mach speaks of the PIP ignoring facts while the PGP is faithful to them. But let's look at the facts;

- The clasp is seen on day 1 of the investigation. This is clearly a sexual assault and here is a severed piece of bra clasp. It is, nonetheless, not collected.
- 46 days later, after numerous visits to the cottage and the complete undoing of the bedroom, the clasp is located in a different location. The SP now decide to collect it,

After the crap crack investigators realised they had miscounted the rings on the shoe soles.
 
Presumably you meant to write "no reason to believe her list is NOT truthful"?

I mean exactly what I said. From a detective's point of view, there is no reason to believe her partners list is truthful.
From the perspective of investigation there would no reason to assume that a suspect who has something to hide would write down a truthful or full list.

Btw the list of acquaintences she released to the police was certainly not truthful (incomplete) because in her MySpace page she had told about a beautiful black young man she had known in Perugia (via Garibaldi area) since August, and they promised they would meet again as soon as she would return from Germany. Yet she does not name this person neither in her police testimonies nor in her book. Maybe the man was not a "sexual partner" but still the "most beautiful black man she had ever met" is missing from her acquaintances and from her memories: she does not provide complete information.
 
I think it's enough to say the case against them was hopelessly flawed and incapable of ever sustaining a conviction beyond reasonable doubt by any standard, which was Grinder's more conservative opinion.

I've always tried to separate my opinion on "what really happened" (Rudy killed Meredith during a burglary gone bad, the police had an initial bad hunch and muscled corroborating statements out of three innocent suspects and found themselves hopelessly doubling down trying to salvage a failed case) - vs what we can conclude to very objective standards of law and science, which is we certainly cannot say the police investigation and prosecution's case removed any reasonable doubt about the student's involvement in the murder. Indeed the only people who object to the latter must and do invent massive conspiracies (judicial bribes, mafia interference, etc)

I agree with all of this, but I cannot separate my opinion. Your conclusion is the obvious one and the only explanation that the evidence leads. But from a legal standpoint, that doesn't matter. The only important citeria is whether there is enough evidence to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. And that threshold wasn't even close to being met despite the desperate arguments by the PGP.
 
Who said they weren't. The point is that the 2015 ISC annulled because of the trial record. Aside from the fact that you have just admitted that the ISC has access to the trial record when it suits them to say something about the bra clasp....

No.

The SC does not have access to the trial records.

And cannot access them by law.
(and I have not "admitted" anything of the kind you invented).

What I say can be backed by law and jurisprudence.

All of what you say is subsumed by the 2015 decision unless you want to keep advancing a conspiracy....

The 2015 findings are that Knox was certainly on the scene of murder when Meredith was killed.
The SC did not have access to trial records.
The SC did not assess evidence.

The 5st chambers SC cannot overturn Chieffi's points of law. They are all definitive and res iudicata.
 
More Italian Constitution:

Art. 24
Anyone may bring cases before a court of law in order to protect their rights under civil and administrative law.Defense is an inviolable right at every stage and instance of legal proceedings.The poor are entitled by law to proper means for action or defense in all
courts.
The law shall define the conditions and forms of reparation in case of judicial errors.

The second clause above is the foundation for the presence of a lawyer during an interrogation in Italy, for example, as expressed in CPP Articles 63 (person who makes an incriminating sentence during a witness interview is advised to appoint a lawyer and that an investigation will be started against him) and 64 (the suspect is interrogated in the presence of his lawyer).

Based on art. 350, 351 cpp investigators can collect information also in conditions of diminished defense rights and without a lawyer, if deemed urgent for investigation purposes.
Statements collected this way are not usable contra sè for trial purposes. But they are usable for investigation and pre-trial purposes.

You better not suggest that collecting statements was a violation of some law, it was not.
 
I mean exactly what I said. From a detective's point of view, there is no reason to believe her partners list is truthful.
From the perspective of investigation there would no reason to assume that a suspect who has something to hide would write down a truthful or full list.

Btw the list of acquaintences she released to the police was certainly not truthful (incomplete) because in her MySpace page she had told about a beautiful black young man she had known in Perugia (via Garibaldi area) since August, and they promised they would meet again as soon as she would return from Germany. Yet she does not name this person neither in her police testimonies nor in her book. Maybe the man was not a "sexual partner" but still the "most beautiful black man she had ever met" is missing from her acquaintances and from her memories: she does not provide complete information.

This (highlighted) seems a fair point.
 
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