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Who killed Meredith Kercher? part 23

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...guard-obsessed-Foxy-Knoxys-sex-life.html?vm=r

From the Daily Mail (yes the Mail, but still)

Amanda Knox's prison chief asked her to list men she had slept with 'after becoming obsessed with her sex life'
Prison also told Knox she had HIV before further test returned negative
Guard quizzed her about sex 'to provoke Knox and test her personality

There is no doubt this guy is a perv. He was disciplined and sacked IIRC So what stopped Amanda lodging a complaint at the time.

I tend to suspect she made up the story to get public sympathy.

All prisoners get HIV tested. She was not being singled out for special treatment as she claims. In her Prison Diary written at the time she makes no complaint about the doctor at all.
 
Here is a brief summary from the ECHR of its process in reviewing a case; some parts of the process were not included by the ECHR.




Source: http://echr.coe.int/Pages/home.aspx?p=applicants&c=#n14525887520554814236201_pointer
Link to PDF "Questions and Answers"

*The application, or that part of the application, that the ECHR does not find inadmissible in its initial review is them COMMUNICATED to the RESPONDENT STATE for its comments on admissibility and merits.

The comments from the State are then forwarded by ECHR to the applicant (including the applicant's lawyer) for a RESPONSE.

The ECHR then reviews the State comments and applicant response and may issue a new Communication to the State for additional comments, followed by forwarding those comments to the applicant for a response.

There may be several cycles of such Communications, comments and responses.

The ECHR then proceeds to a final review of 1) admissibility and 2) merits. In some (perhaps rare) cases it will determine the admissibility by simultaneously reviewing the merits, when it views these two issues as being entangled.

Thus, an application that has been has not been found inadmissible in the initial review by the ECHR is "accepted" for Communication to the State. This "acceptance for Communication" is not identical to a final decision by the ECHR that the application is admissible, because the parties are entitled to comment and respond on that issue before the ECHR makes its final decision.


No, it can still be found inadmissible. If you look on the ECHR web page of judgments, you will see a large number are dismissed as 'inadmissible'.

The ECHR in this case have not even reached the admissibility stage.

Claims rejected at the outset do not get a judgment.

The epistle Ergon received from the ECHR Press Office, is clear enough.
 
Raff is doing missionary work is he? Helping the poor, hungry and homeless? Helping out the earthquake rescue efforts?


Splendid!


Sorry? What's that you say? He's running hate Facebook pages desecrating women, idoling knives and hurling abuse at Rudy?


<sfx splutter>


You were saying...?

Mach your help would be appreciated here. Is Sollecito running Facebook 'hate' pages as claimed by vixen? Or is this (to put the most favourable view) exaggeration of the truth (perhaps what is now fashionably known as alternative truths)?
 
Since she took office there have been, by my rough estimate, ~ 2500 homicides involving people from Washington State. How many of these did she use her political influence on and claim resulted in unfair trials?

Her personal story is probably not widely known because it happened to someone other than herself, a long time ago, and there is no pattern of it causing biased influence to her positions as a senator.

I think the most striking part of this story is the PGP's seemingly encyclopedic knowledge of the far reaching remote background of seemingly every single person that ever once said something positive about Amanda Knox.

Hello it happened to her brother, also from Washington state.The murder happened in a rental apartment her parents owned. The young victim was stabbed her first night living there with a fork.The Senator's brother was eventually acquitted. The entire long drawn out affair caused her father to make allegations of a political witch hunt. He ended up leaving politics. The murder remains unsolved but be sure it left a great impression on the Senator. I happened on the story several years ago with no research involved. I have a good memory for interesting stories .
 
She did not say positive things about Amanda Knox, bagels, she pushed a conspiracy theory about Italian police and judiciaries - like just like the one her family launched to protect her young brother, a campaign she was involved in and after which she decided to get into politics following her father's steps.

Let's not forget that this respected senator started a defamatory campaign against unknown people thousands of miles away. She's a politician who stuck her nose into the Italian judiciary.

Because they were trying to throw one of her constituents clearly innocent of any crime into a dungeon for her entire adult life because when the evidence against their prime suspect (Patrick) collapsed from underneath them, rather than admitting they beat a corroborating statement out of a clueless girl to make an arrest on a bad hunch for a crime that turned out to clearly be the work of their local burglar, they decided to double down and invent a bizarre incoherent theory nobody to this day can explain of a crime between the student and her just-met boyfriend, a random burglar neither knew and had no communication with who just happened to leave 100% of the primary evidence at the scene with a break-in exactly matching his MO, using "evidence" like the town junkie who initially saw and reported nothing when asked, but then miraculously later remembered he saw the two most famous defendants in Italy just in time to save the prosecution's case, and a giant bloodless kitchen knife teleporting around town alleged as a murder weapon for a stabbing clearly done by a small pocket sized penknife. Wow the nerve of her.
 
Because they were trying to throw one of her constituents clearly innocent of any crime into a dungeon for her entire adult life because when the evidence against their prime suspect (Patrick) collapsed from underneath them, rather than admitting they beat a corroborating statement out of a clueless girl to make an arrest on a bad hunch for a crime that turned out to clearly be the work of their local burglar, they decided to double down and invent a bizarre incoherent theory nobody to this day can explain of a crime between the student and her just-met boyfriend, a random burglar neither knew and had no communication with who just happened to leave 100% of the primary evidence at the scene with a break-in exactly matching his MO, using "evidence" like the town junkie who initially saw and reported nothing when asked, but then miraculously later remembered he saw the two most famous defendants in Italy just in time to save the prosecution's case, and a giant bloodless kitchen knife teleporting around town alleged as a murder weapon for a stabbing clearly done by a small pocket sized penknife. Wow the nerve of her.

Bagels, be reasonable. 'A random burglar' does not commit sadistic murders that involve torture with at least two different knives, locking the victim in a room' and then coming back later to undress the body and clean up.
 
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You seem to be going back to the tactic that because the actual literal word "coercion" or "shedevil" (or their Italian equivalents) were never explicitly used, it means the general sentiment was never expressed in any form.

I'm sorry but "coercion" is not a general sentiment.
An allegation of coercion legally has to do with a point of fact.
To claim coercion means, to have a claim about a fact. Something that is by nature somehow observable.

Amanda Knox defence claimed facts that were identical to those claimed by the police.
And they claimed false memory syndrome - an event which is by its nature something non observable. It is an event internal to the brain. Theoretically possible. But a video camera cannot record it.

Incidentally, a person who claims to suffer of a false memory syndrome has no mean to tell what the memory is false, since false memories are identical to all other memories, and thus could not claim to be sure of having an alibi.
Amanda Knox's position is fundamentally contradictory on very obvious aspects.

As for quoting what you mean by "shedevil", what you did is quoting that she had reportedly a sexual or relational lifestyle different from that of her roommate, which is not a judge's theory (even less a prosecution theory) but rather something that was reported by some British witnesses.
If you call this "shedevil" characterization, what may only come out from this, in my opinion, is just your feeling of personal anger against the facts.
Maybe you don't like the English girls' reporting Meredith saying that she would bring strange men at home.

I understand you have a particular view of the interrogation. This is different from having a particular view on ECHR procedures, which are a matter of actual law.

I already stated your position on the ECHR claim would only be of interest to me if you had it without regard to the alleged coercive nature of the interrogation. I don't need you to remind me you think she blamed the black guy.

I don't have a particular view of the interrogation. We might say I have a particular view of Knox's false accusation of Lumumba, which I consider an issue itself, something separate from "the interrogation". My view is actually not "particular" since it's the view of all judiciaries and courts on the point.
The evidence of Knox's malice and lying does not depend on whatever alleged violation related to police interrogation.
The use of interrogation and spontaneous statement as evidence in the calunnia case, this is the allegation of violation of art. 6. I don't believe this is a violation but I acknowledge there is no case law precedent on this point. So I consider at least in theory the possibility that the ECHR would decide that some piece of evidence is not usable - even though I do not believe such a decision would be reasonable. But a violation of art. 6 based on this, it would be just a procedural point. A point of law, not a point of facts or evidence regarding coercion, and that would not affect the merits of the evidence of Knox malice and her guilt.
The evidence of Knox calunnia does not depend on whether the interrogation and the spontaneous statement are usable or not. There is sufficient evidence of calunnia even without those pieces of evidence.
And by the way, I believe only a hypocrite would claim someone's "innocence" based on the fact that a piece of evidence is procedurally not usable. Normal people would just look at the factual evidence that the person is a liar.
 
Hello it happened to her brother, also from Washington state.The murder happened in a rental apartment her parents owned. The young victim was stabbed her first night living there with a fork.The Senator's brother was eventually acquitted. The entire long drawn out affair caused her father to make allegations of a political witch hunt. He ended up leaving politics. The murder remains unsolved but be sure it left a great impression on the Senator. I happened on the story several years ago with no research involved. I have a good memory for interesting stories .

A quick google search and the story was in the Seattle Times. The family lived in Indiana not Washington. Maria was described as daddy's girl. The senior Cantwell described his son as troubled but not a killer. The defense would not agree to political meddling as the reason for the son's charges. Maria isn't open to discussing any of this family history that went on for several years.
 
Bagels, be reasonable. 'A random burglar' does not commit sadistic murders that involves torture with at least two different knives, locking the victim in a room' and then coming back later to undress the body and clean up.

Random in relation to Amanda. Unlike Patrick who was her boss and she was communicating with just before the murder, which made the police theory at the time actually coherent, which is why the police were pursuing it.

As opposed to the post-Patrick theory where you have lost all your logistical support (communication, opportunity, timeline) and you replace that with a shrug of the shoulder "they happened to run into this guy they don't know on their way to kill Meredith on 20 minutes notice, and invited him along for no reason....he came with them and joined in to rape her with these two people he didnt know and hold her down while they slaughtered her for no reason...and somehow was the only one that left traces that could be definitely timed to the murder....he was also picked up on CCTV alone by the cottage before any of this happened, and the break-in they later staged looked just like the other second story break-in he was connected to, but both of those things were just random coincidences...shrug...whatever...I'm Massei/Mignini/Nencini/Chieffi and I'm a complete idiot so whatev guilty as charged... oh now this US senator is mad at me for some reason I wonder why"

:rolleyes:
 
Knox 'stabbed Kercher in neck as part of satanic rite'
Prosecutor: American delivered fatal blow, then student was strangled

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...r-in-neck-as-part-of-satanic-rite-966242.html

I am not expecting you to agree with this headline, but to show you that I am sure you can appreciate why I have a problem with not having full, unedited, unfiltered and commentated sources. The things you say are obvious are not necessarily so.

Yes. However, this may require a bit of work
You may also understand that those sources will be in Italian. And probably not standard Italian or anything that you could process thorugh Google Translator.
You may find be things written in legalese or technical stuff that would require some legal check, or legal knowledge; or you may face translation or grammar issues in the context of legal speech; you may find colloqualisms such as in Sollecito's fb posts. Or other things like that.

Some thought about reliability of single journalists might be also the case. What are their sources? What is their direct knowldege of the case? Of the language? Or their neutrality?
Peter Popham, for example her calls Guede "a small-time drug dealer". Is that proven or alleged somewhere, is there some official or reliable source for that? He has a title "satanic rite". Is there any Italian source of the time that has such claim?
Note that in the body of the article even Popham says: "Mr Mignini has maintained that she died after refusing to take part in a drug-fuelled orgy in which the three accused participated. This was the scenario he outlined to the judge". (so where is the Satanic rite?)
 
As for quoting what you mean by "shedevil", what you did is quoting that she had reportedly a sexual or relational lifestyle different from that of her roommate, which is not a judge's theory (even less a prosecution theory) but rather something that was reported by some British witnesses.
If you call this "shedevil" characterization, what may only come out from this, in my opinion, is just your feeling of personal anger against the facts.
Maybe you don't like the English girls' reporting Meredith saying that she would bring strange men at home.

Lol the witnesses did not pour into the police headquarters lining up to gossip about what a slut Amanda was. Obviously the police were bringing them in asking them specific questions about the girls sex lives, and recorded this information for the record, because they considered it a matter of interest and relevance to the case. I don't even know why you're denying this.

I don't see the shedevil issue as a critical factor in the case at all, it is merely trivia to me. Amanda wasn't convicted of murder because she was a slut, but to cover up a coercive interrogation that lead to three wrongful arrests. I only brought it up because you did.
 
So now she's been upgraded from family member of someone who once allegedly did something, to the head conspirator. Haha.

The reason she spoke out against the prosecution of Amanda Knox, as opposed to the probably scores of people prosecuted abroad without incident, is because the case was so self evidently crap and politically motivated, for all the reasons that have been thoroughly discussed in this thread.

(...)

Come on be serious. You're not serious if you consider senator Cantwell as politically unrelated to her father, a prominent politician, who retired from politics as a consequence of his son's trial and after accusing the police of conspiracy. His daughter started her political career after such family breakdown following her father's steps.
Her actions - just like her family's actions few decades before - were indeed politically motivated and also psychologically and emotionally knit to the history of her family and their public stance.
 
Lol the witnesses did not pour into the police headquarters lining up to gossip about what a slut Amanda was.

Actually, they did.
Some English witness even presented herself to the British police to add further testimony, unrequested.

Obviously the police were bringing them in asking them specific questions about the girls sex lives, and recorded this information for the record, because they considered it a matter of interest and relevance to the case. I don't even know why you're denying this.

I don't know why you think I should deny that their habits and frequentations would be a matter for detectives to ask questions about. The murder occurred in a sexual context and it's a "murder in a cottage". Though I don't believe the police would ask many "specific questions about sex lives", I would expect them to investigate their private lives overall and to ask Meredith's acquaintances and friends what information and impressions they have about this.
I don't understand what's wrong with this and I don't see why this appears to you as calling someone "shedevil".

I don't see the shedevil issue as a critical factor in the case at all, it is merely trivia to me. Amanda wasn't convicted of murder because she was a slut, but to cover up a coercive interrogation that lead to three wrongful arrests. I only brought it up because you did.

An alleged coercive interrogation of which Amanda Knox defence made no claim in the trial.
What she did instead was to tell a load of crap before and after the interrogation and after the spontaneous statement and repeating further false testimonies and false accusations for weeks, in what the SC called a "protracted behaviour".
 
Yes. However, this may require a bit of work
You may also understand that those sources will be in Italian. And probably not standard Italian or anything that you could process thorugh Google Translator.
You may find be things written in legalese or technical stuff that would require some legal check, or legal knowledge; or you may face translation or grammar issues in the context of legal speech; you may find colloqualisms such as in Sollecito's fb posts. Or other things like that.

Some thought about reliability of single journalists might be also the case. What are their sources? What is their direct knowldege of the case? Of the language? Or their neutrality?
Peter Popham, for example her calls Guede "a small-time drug dealer". Is that proven or alleged somewhere, is there some official or reliable source for that? He has a title "satanic rite". Is there any Italian source of the time that has such claim?
Note that in the body of the article even Popham says: "Mr Mignini has maintained that she died after refusing to take part in a drug-fuelled orgy in which the three accused participated. This was the scenario he outlined to the judge". (so where is the Satanic rite?)

Regarding the first paragraph: that is why I am unhappy to just take a view of RS's fb activity just via commentators that have the absolute worst take on him.
Regarding the second, yes I know you have issues with some UK journalists. I was using the link to make my point about not necessarily taking secondary sources or sources at further stages of removal at face value. I won't parse the words Mignini has said or alleged to have said, or his previous history, or what MK's lawyer said in court here as that wasn't my main purpose. There were many different motives put forward over the years and it was all a bit of a dog's breakfast.
 
An arrest has been made in relation to online threats against Gina Miller in the UK. This is relevant to this case because of continual similar online stuff (not here) which goes unmoderated.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-38744073

The Brexit issue has caused high feelings in the UK. In earlier times, civil war might have broken out. Gina is 'hated' because she is rich, female and Guyanan, as well as having had a posh education at Roedean.

A sizeable number of people voting Brexit did so because of anti-immigration sentiment, so yeah, Gina has been a target for the vilest personal abuse.

I don't see there is any similarity whatsoever between this and the kids.
 
What Amanda Knox wrote in her hand written notes (of Nov 6th & 7th) supports - and actually proves - she was a malicious liar.

In fact, also what she wrote and said before her interrogation is a series of proven lies demonstrating she was deceptive and a liar all along.

Witnesses prove she is a liar.

He books proves she is a liar.

What she said after the police interrogation before prosecutor Mignini demonstrates she is a liar.

Anna Donnino's testimony shows she is a liar.

Her own defensive position throughout the trial, moreover, was not to claim coercion. The defence in fact never claimed coercion. So not only there is no evidence of coercion, or mistreatment, whatsoever; there is not even a claim. Such coercion claim simply doesn't exist in the trial. It was never a defensive position.
The defence claimed a false memory syndrome, and they never alleged anything factually different from what the police and the other witnesses described.
Even Knox's account of the interrogation is basically identical to that of the police.
She had no claim about "what happened in that interrogation". There is no factual difference between the Knox version and the police version, the only difference between the police version and Knox's version being the alleged hitting at the back of the head (which would have happened around 1am according to her), for which she did not complain and was not able to indicate the person who allegedly did it.
Her only claim is the false memory syndrome.

And also, no subsequent alleged interogation by Mignini ever happend at 05:45 - she manifestly lies in her book about it - there was no claim by Knox at the time that this ever happened, and there was no claim by her defence that an illegal interrogation ever happened: it never hapened.

And then her 17. Dec. interrogation, where she sinks in a spiral of contradictions until when she is asked about what happened during the interrogation and why she falsely accused Lumumba -at that point she refuses to answer.

Forget about the ECHR, it will ever change any of those truths.

As detailed in my post below PGP have a long history of lying themselves, condoning and ignorning the lies of others and Machiavelli calls Amanda a malicious liar. The PGP are utterly shameless in their hypocrisy. It is a pity hypocrisy is not an olympic sport. PGP would win gold every time.

It is important to bear in mind that PGP don't have a problem with lying it is simply how lies are used. PGP regard lies as perfectly fine when they work against Amanda and Raffaele and lies are only wrong for the PGP when they work for Amanda and Raffaele. The only reason Machiavelli objects to Amanda's supposed lies is because Amanda uses them to her advantage. I will use an example to illustrate my point lies are fine for PGP when they work against Amanda and Raffaele. Machiavelli and other PGP defend the shop owner Quintavelle who blatantly lied about seeing Amanda in his shop and slavishly defend prosecutors who are willing to use a witness who lied. The lies of Quintavelle are acceptable to Machiavelli and other PGP because his lie about seeing Amanda in his shop was damaging to Amanda. I can other examples of the PGP condoning or ignoring the lies when they work against Amanda and Raffaele.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=11427461#post11427461
 
There is no doubt this guy is a perv. He was disciplined and sacked IIRC So what stopped Amanda lodging a complaint at the time.

I tend to suspect she made up the story to get public sympathy.

All prisoners get HIV tested. She was not being singled out for special treatment as she claims. In her Prison Diary written at the time she makes no complaint about the doctor at all.

I did not know this. Thank you.
 
Mach your help would be appreciated here. Is Sollecito running Facebook 'hate' pages as claimed by vixen? Or is this (to put the most favourable view) exaggeration of the truth (perhaps what is now fashionably known as alternative truths)?

He appears to be a friend of one of the admins of one of the FB group.
About whether the groups he wrote on are "hate groups" or not, this is a discussion that already existed in Italy possibly since a year before anyone knew about Sollecito's participation in these groups.

Several newspapers had reported about those groups, calling them "hate groups", or "mysoginistic" or "slut-shaming" groups. Albeit, one of these group is very large (the 2016 one is the "new edition" of the group after the original was banned at the end of 2015, I think), and not all the activity on it could be defined "hate talk", I have the impression that slut-shaming of ex-girlfriends & wife tends to be a prevalent activity. Sollecito is not one of the administrators but is clearly one of the "leaders", he is a friend of one of the administrators and posted pictures in his company.
There was also another groups where Sollecito was contributing which is instead very small and exclusively made of men.
A talk about those groups in a bit more detailed way would require a dedicated post, their content and type of people, etc. This was just a quick answer.
 
(...) Machiavelli and other PGP defend the shop owner Quintavelle who blatantly lied about seeing Amanda in his shop and slavishly defend prosecutors who are willing to use a witness who lied. The lies of Quintavelle are acceptable to Machiavelli and other PGP because his lie about seeing Amanda in his shop was damaging to Amanda. I can other examples of the PGP condoning or ignoring the lies when they work against Amanda and Raffaele.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=11427461#post11427461

One interesting thing of this post is that you seemingly admit that Knox "used lies". As a matter of fact, I only need to point out that there is no evidence whatsoever that Quintavalle lied.
I remember the arguments the pro-Knox crowd used to bring to this point, are just proven false (they used to make false claims about the contents of the testimonies of Chiriboga and of inspector Volturno).
 
He appears to be a friend of one of the admins of one of the FB group.
About whether the groups he wrote on are "hate groups" or not, this is a discussion that already existed in Italy possibly since a year before anyone knew about Sollecito's participation in these groups.

Several newspapers had reported about those groups, calling them "hate groups", or "mysoginistic" or "slut-shaming" groups. Albeit, one of these group is very large (the 2016 one is the "new edition" of the group after the original was banned at the end of 2015, I think), and not all the activity on it could be defined "hate talk", I have the impression that slut-shaming of ex-girlfriends & wife tends to be a prevalent activity. Sollecito is not one of the administrators but is clearly one of the "leaders", he is a friend of one of the administrators and posted pictures in his company.
There was also another groups where Sollecito was contributing which is instead very small and exclusively made of men.
A talk about those groups in a bit more detailed way would require a dedicated post, their content and type of people, etc. This was just a quick answer.


So......... no, he isn't. :rolleyes:
 
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