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Who killed Meredith Kercher? part 23

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This is a wild guess on my part, but perhaps it has something to do with the discussions on the physics of the rock throw through the window by Guede (assuming, for the sake of argument, he was the thrower)?

I suspect that there lies the non-sequitur connection with spies and dossiers. It was in one of the conversion factors between torque and length.:)

It's not a non sequitor when converted into Base 8.
 
Chieffi who ranks higher than Nencini and preceded Marasca, said Hellman's decision to appoint Conti & Vecchiotti was not adequately justified. Its whole MR was torn to shreds, with Conti & Vecchiotti excoriated.

IOW it was res judicata by a previous supreme court (Chieffi) that Conti & Vecchiotti, together with Hellmann, were toast.

Marasca was defective and erred in reinstating Vecchiotti & Conti, and Hellmann's mad p!sspoor reasonings.

Here's a sample of self evidently bad reasoning from Chieffi:

This is without considering that when he was called to testify both in the first and second trials, Curatolo was able to identify and easily recognize the two defendants – even some time after the fact

A witness is reliable because he is able to recognize the two most famous young defendants in Italy sitting in front of him in the courtroom next to their lawyers.

I have never in the history of this case seen a PGP quote a passage from Hellmann and independently explain why it's illogical. They just quote Chieffi, who has a rather circular approach "it's unreliable because I say it is."

Feel free to take up the challenge.
 
But you already said it was Raffaele who testified about this in court. You did so in an attempt to call Raffaele a liar. "Who's the liar, the kids or the police?"

Who is the liar? Esp. when Raffaele never testified at any of the hearings.... I think you know the answer.

When he signed his police statement, that became a witness statement. A witness statement is court testimony if used in court, which it was.
 
Here's a sample of self evidently bad reasoning from Chieffi:



A witness is reliable because he is able to recognize the two most famous young defendants in Italy sitting in front of him in the courtroom next to their lawyers.

I have never in the history of this case seen a PGP quote a passage from Hellmann and independently explain why it's illogical. They just quote Chieffi, who has a rather circular approach "it's unreliable because I say it is."

Feel free to take up the challenge.

Although Vixen tells us he has a good degree in psychology he seems sadly unaware of the research on identification. I suspect the eye witness testimony would never have been presented in the UK. There was no attempt by the Italian police to have a photo line up to confirm reliability of identification. The unreliability of eye witness identification is mentioned here; http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4177082.stm
and there is an interesting summary here;
http://www.visualexpert.com/Resources/mistakenid.html
and
http://www.apa.org/monitor/apr06/eyewitness.aspx

In England judges have to warn juries about the risks of eyewitness identification.
http://www.inbrief.co.uk/court-proceedings/turnbull-guidelines/
 
Eyewitness testimony is most reliable when it is taken early, and before it can be influenced by outside factors.

Fortunately, we have such testimony from Curatolo:

"..the Carabinieri have come to us of questions...responded to what [we] knew... we had not seen anything and that we knew nothing"

Just like Quintavalle he gives us a reliable reason to exclude his testimony out the starting gate.

But when all you have is blood negative DNA negative stains vaguely in the shape of half the world's feet, you gotta drag the Curatolo's and Quintavalle's of the world into court, and Chieffi gave these two lying idiots a stamp of approval, and the PGP don't care.
 
Vixen constantly claims the supreme court had no right under law to annul a guilty verdict and if the supreme court did not confirm a guilty verdict it had to be sent back for another trial. If this was the case, would people have spoken out against this. Have any judges, lawyers or anyone in the media spoken out against the supposed illegal nature of the court's decision. Has anyone from the prosecution argued the court's decision was illegal. If annulling the conviction was against Italian law, this would be a massive gift to the prosecution. Are we expected to believe someone like Mignini would not have spoken out if the supreme court had acted illegally.
 
Eyewitness testimony is most reliable when it is taken early, and before it can be influenced by outside factors.

Fortunately, we have such testimony from Curatolo:

"..the Carabinieri have come to us of questions...responded to what [we] knew... we had not seen anything and that we knew nothing"

Just like Quintavalle he gives us a reliable reason to exclude his testimony out the starting gate.

But when all you have is blood negative DNA negative stains vaguely in the shape of half the world's feet, you gotta drag the Curatolo's and Quintavalle's of the world into court, and Chieffi gave these two lying idiots a stamp of approval, and the PGP don't care.

The use of witnesses who lied is yet another example of the hypocrisy of the PGP. PGP have relentlessly attacked Amanda and Raffaele for lying but defend two witnesses who blatantly lied and defend prosecutors who were willing to use lying witnesses. If the prosecution had a mountain of solid credible evidence and a strong case, why did the prosecution have to resort to using the unreliable testimony of blatant liars.
 
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When he signed his police statement, that became a witness statement. A witness statement is court testimony if used in court, which it was.


Ahhhh here we go again. Yet more goalpost shifting, coupled with a annulment-esque misunderstanding of what the word "testimony" means in the context of law enforcement and criminal justice.

Testimony (in this context) strictly means a written or oral submission directly to a court of law, in which the person supplying the testimony is pledging to the truth through his or her words. The person giving the testimony must present themselves as a witness to the court, in order for their testimony to be allowed to be properly heard, tested, examined and evaluated.

If the police statements of Knox and Sollecito were submitted to the court in written form, they formed evidence and not testimony (exactly as, for example, a written autopsy report is submitted as evidence (though of course the autopsy pathologist may be called to give testimony in court to testify about his/her report). If a police officer testified in court to what was said in those interrogations, it was the police officer giving testimony about the police officer's own recollections, and was not the testimony of Knox or Sollecito.

If written testimony is presented to a court, it will have been procured for the court (and not for the police), and - other than in extreme circumstances - the person supplying the testimony will have to submit themselves to questioning and evaluation in court (viz. the unlawful introduction of written testimony from Guede in the Knox/Sollecito trial without the court having the ability to examine him). A statement made by a suspect to police - whether oral or written and signed - never constitutes court testimony in and of itself.

Lastly, let's remind ourselves of what you actually originally wrote. You wrote:

"Yet both Raff and Amanda are adamant they did not awake until 10:00-ish and Raff had a lie-in until midday, and testified to this effect in court."

In this sentence, "both Raff and Amanda" and "Raff" are the subjects - and therefore the clause "...and testified to this effect in court" necessarily implies that you meant that Knox and/or Sollecito testified to this effect in court (the poor punctuation makes it unclear as to whether you meant that "both Amanda and Raff" or "Raff" are the subject of the final clause). But neither Knox nor Sollecito testified to any of this in court. They gave statements to the police long before they were charged with any criminal offence, and those statements were introduced in evidence in court.

Of course, you could simply have said "Oh yes, sorry, I was wrong to say they testified about this in court - what I should have said was that they signed police statements to this effect which were subsequently produced in evidence in court". But.................
 
Were statements of Raffaele Sollecito or Amanda Knox used in court, and if so, was that in accordance with Italian law (summaries):

CPP Article 63. 1. Statements by a person not an accused or a suspect which are incriminating shall require police to end questioning, and warn the person to get a lawyer and that he is now a suspect. Such statements shall not be used against him. 2. If he should have been heard as a suspect from the beginning, his statements shall not be used.

CPP Article 64. 1. The suspected person participates freely in the questioning....2. Methods or techniques which can influence the freedom of self-determination or alter the ability to recall and evaluate the facts shall not be used....3. Prior to questioning, the person must be warned that a) his statements can be used against him; b) he has the right to silence...c) any statement he makes about others will require him to take on the status of a witness {a warning to tell the truth or be charged with calunnia}....3-bis. If the warnings of 3 a and b are not given, the statements may not be used; if the warning of 3 c is not given, the statements shall not be used against others and he shall not become a witness.

CPP Article 208. During the trial, the accused person ... shall be examined {only} if he requests or agrees to be examined.

CPP Article 350 1. Police shall follow the procedures of Article 64 in questioning a susspect ... 2. Prior to the investigative questioning, the police shall require the suspect to appoint a lawyer ... 3. ... The lawyer must be present during questioning. .... 7. The police may also receive spontaneous statements from the suspect, but their use in not allowed at trial except for certain cases of rebuttal only.

CPP Article 351 1-bis. Information from a person accused in joined proceedings or from a person accused of an offense related to the offense being prosecuted ... This person shall be informed that he shall be assisted by a court-appointed lawyer if he does not have a lawyer but he may also appoint a lawyer. The lawyer must be informed promptly and has the right to be present during the questioning.

CPP Article 354 .... 3. The suspect's lawyer must be notified at least 24 hours in advance of any questioning of the suspect that will be undertaken by the prosecutor. 4. The suspect's lawyer has the right to be present during any questioning of the suspect by the prosecutor. 5. In case of urgency, if there are reasonable grounds to believe that the delay may compromise the search for or the securing of the sources of evidence, the prosecutor may carry out the questioning prior to the time limit specified in paragraph 3 but must notify the lawyer. 6. When the prosecutor carries out questioning under the provisions of paragraph 5, he must specify, under penalty of nullity (not being able to use the information for any purpose) the grounds for derogating from paragraph 3 and how the lawyer was informed.

CPP Article 373 1. ... [T]he following acts shall be minuted: (b) questionings and line-ups involving the suspect; (c) inspections, searches, and seizures ... (e) technical ascertainments (for example, DNA profile tests) .... 4. The activities shall be minuted either while they are being carried out or immediately afterward if there are insuperable circumstances preventing immediate minuting, which circumstances must be specifically detailed ....
 
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Although Vixen tells us he has a good degree in psychology he seems sadly unaware of the research on identification. I suspect the eye witness testimony would never have been presented in the UK. There was no attempt by the Italian police to have a photo line up to confirm reliability of identification. The unreliability of eye witness identification is mentioned here; http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4177082.stm
and there is an interesting summary here;
http://www.visualexpert.com/Resources/mistakenid.html
and
http://www.apa.org/monitor/apr06/eyewitness.aspx

In England judges have to warn juries about the risks of eyewitness identification.
http://www.inbrief.co.uk/court-proceedings/turnbull-guidelines/



Absolutely. There were, from the outset, grotesquely huge problems with the credibility and reliability of the "eyewitness" testimony of both Curatolo and Quintavalle (as well as the "earwitness" testimony of Capezzali*). The flaws were so tremendous that it's truly astonishing that the Massei and Nencini courts accepted their identifications as reliable - the only feasible explanation of this IMO is that these courts were still hopelessly bound up in their deference to the prosecution case (and therefore if the prosecutors announced that, in their opinion, these witnesses were utterly reliable and credible, then what reason could the court have to disbelieve the "fair, impartial and truth-seeking" prosecutors....?).

As you correctly point out, one of the cornerstones of eyewitness evidence and testimony in properly-constituted criminal justice systems is the necessity for the witness to positively confirm identity. And this, as you say, is most often done by a fair and properly-run test in which the witness is shown the suspect alongside a number of other, similar, people. This is done by way of an identification parade line-up, or via photo or video compilations in which the suspect is randomly inserted among the others (usually at least five others) in the line-up. The police must not give any direction to the witness other than to say something along the lines of: "You're about to see a number of faces/people; if the person you saw is one of these in the line-up, then point that person out to an officer."

It should be obvious as to how and why such a test makes a massive difference in credibility and reliability of identification, when compared with something along the lines of the police simply showing an eyewitness a photo of the suspect(s) and asking "Is this the person(s) you saw?". There's no evidence that anything other than the latter approach was adopted by the "crack" investigating police in the Knox/Sollecito case. This alone (as you say) should have been sufficient to render their evidence and testimony unreliable to the point of inadmissible (and almost certainly would have done so in any court in E&W or the US). But of course over and above that, there were numerous other extraordinary problems with these peoples' credibility and reliability - not least the fact that, in the case of both Quintavalle and Curatolo, there were initial denials of having seen anyone/anything relevant to the case, then the elapsing of a huge period of time (months in the case of Curatolo, around a year(!!!) in the case of Quintavalle) before their memories miraculously got stronger and they were suddenly able to identify Knox or Knox & Sollecito in stunning accuracy and detail.

All that aside, Chieffi's statement is actually even more incredible if read carefully. Chieffi wrote:

"...when he was called to testify both in the first and second trials, Curatolo was able to identify and easily recognize the two defendants – even some time after the fact"


There's an inherent ambiguity in this statement. Chieffi could be meaning that Curatolo was, in court, able to testify that he had easily identified and recognised Knox & Sollecito to the police during police investigations. One would, at the very least, hope this was what Chieffi meant - though it's still amazing and damning that the Chieffi court could not recognise the fundamental credibility/reliability issues with Curatolo's "identifications".

But (as others have also pointed out) Chieffi could be meaning here (and taken at its most literal, it's what the statement implies) that Curatolo was, in court, easily able to identify and recognise Knox and Sollecito in the courtroom in the midst of the trial. Again, one would hope that this is not what Chieffi meant, since this would be a beyond-fatuous statement for a Supreme Court judge to make. But then again......


* I cannot help but repeat one of my favourite pieces of abominably poor "reasoning" on the part of Massei in his (convicting) motivations report, in respect of his rationale in accepting Capezzali's testimony as credible and reliable. He wrote these extraordinary words in a shocking example of flawed logic and circular reasoning: "If there had not been such a scream, and if Mrs Capezzali had not actually heard it, then the Court can see no reason why she would have spoken about it."
 
Were statements of Raffaele Sollecito or Amanda Knox used in court, and if so, was that in accordance with Italian law (summaries):


Well yes, indeed. That's a whole other can of worms. The statements of both Knox and Sollecito were extracted and taken unlawfully, and should never have been introduced in evidence in court. I suspect that were they used in any way, then had the murder-related convictions been affirmed by the SC, this would have formed one of the (many) planks of an ECHR application.
 
When he signed his police statement, that became a witness statement. A witness statement is court testimony if used in court, which it was.

I'm coming around to your way of thinking. Ergon is the keeper of both the fake-wiki and of .net, and he heard Mignini observe this about Raffaele's non-testimony in court.

It happened when Ergon had met Mignini when both of them had been in previous lives, which Ergon identifies as in the Crustacean period, 3,000 years ago.

Mignini (back then) had anticipated what Raffaele would be silently thinking in court in the, then, future. Therefore it becomes court testimony in 2009.

Yes, that's it. Otherwise one would have to admit to lying, and simply making up things as one goes.
 
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A brief summary of what the Convention is and what the ECHR and Council of Europe do:

What is the European Convention on Human Rights (“ECHR”)?

•The European Convention on Human Rights is an international treaty signed and ratified by the 47 member States of the Council of Europe. It enshrines basic human rights and fundamental freedoms of everyone within the jurisdiction of any member State. These include the right to life, to protection against torture and inhuman treatment, to freedom and safety, to a fair trial, to respect for private and family life, freedom of expression (including freedom of the press), thought, conscience and religion and to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.

•The European Court of Human Rights delivers binding judgments on alleged violations of the Convention. It is directly accessible to individual applicants and its jurisdiction is compulsory for all Parties to the Convention.The Court sits on a permanent basis in Strasbourg. All the member States of the European Union are Parties to the Convention as are the EU candidate countries. Judgments of the Court finding a violation must be executed by the taking of all necessary measures (e.g. legislative reform to prevent similar violations and, as appropriate, individual measures to erase the consequences of the violation for the individuals concerned). The Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe supervises this execution.

Source: http://echr.coe.int/Pages/home.aspx?p=basictexts/accessionEU&c=

Accession by the European Union to the European Convention on Human Rights: Answers to frequently asked questions - PDF
 
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* I cannot help but repeat one of my favourite pieces of abominably poor "reasoning" on the part of Massei in his (convicting) motivations report, in respect of his rationale in accepting Capezzali's testimony as credible and reliable. He wrote these extraordinary words in a shocking example of flawed logic and circular reasoning: "If there had not been such a scream, and if Mrs Capezzali had not actually heard it, then the Court can see no reason why she would have spoken about it."
After the Massei MR came out I began adding notations on passages that I found to be illogical or contradictory. I was surprised at just how many notations I wound up making. While I find the above quote truly jaw dropping, it's hardly the most egregious passage in the report. It would be an interesting project to write a book containing quotes from the report and pointing out the obvious flaws with them.

Incredibly, the Massei report makes far more sense than the Nencini report. :jaw-dropp
 
After the Massei MR came out I began adding notations on passages that I found to be illogical or contradictory. I was surprised at just how many notations I wound up making. While I find the above quote truly jaw dropping, it's hardly the most egregious passage in the report. It would be an interesting project to write a book containing quotes from the report and pointing out the obvious flaws with them.

Incredibly, the Massei report makes far more sense than the Nencini report. :jaw-dropp

Near the top of any list of Judge Massei's illogics (new word alert), has to be the way he justified the failure to test the presumed semen stain on the pillow under the victim's hips.

"Presumed" semen, because no one seemed interested in testing something that looked an awful lot like semen found at the site of a sexual assault.

Judge Massei said it would be useless to test it because it probably belonged to the victim's boyfriend, as it was well known she was sexually active. Besides all this, Massei continued, DNA testing has no date-stamp on it, and there'd be no way of knowing when the semen was deposited.

This - while condemning two innocents to 25 and 26 years, the latter on DNA samples found in the accused's own bathroom which she shared with the victim.

You have to admit that this bit of criminal stupidity on Massei's part belongs up there in the top ten.

Others?

But it is true, the 2014 Nencini motivations report is far, far more stupid.
 
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Near the top of any list of Judge Massei's illogics (new word alert), has to be the way he justified the failure to test the presumed semen stain on the pillow under the victim's hips.

"Presumed" semen, because no one seemed interested in testing something that looked an awful lot like semen found at the site of a sexual assault.

Judge Massei said it would be useless to test it because it probably belonged to the victim's boyfriend, as it was well known she was sexually active. Besides all this, Massei continued, DNA testing has no date-stamp on it, and there'd be no way of knowing when the semen was deposited.

This - while condemning two innocents to 25 and 26 years, the latter on DNA samples found in the accused's own bathroom which she shared with the victim.

You have to admit that this bit of criminal stupidity on Massei's part belongs up there in the top ten.
Others?

But it is true, the 2014 Nencini motivations report is far, far more stupid.


Or, does this give credence to the hypothesis that 'guilt' was already determined before the start of the trial?
 
Or, does this give credence to the hypothesis that 'guilt' was already determined before the start of the trial?

Who knows. But in the recent Francesco Maresca memoirs, even he ventures the opinion that this was the way Nencini himself viewed it.
 
LondonJohn wrote
Of course, you could simply have said "Oh yes, sorry, I was wrong to say they testified about this in court - what I should have said was that they signed police statements to this effect which were subsequently produced in evidence in court". But.................

And deprive us of seeing how she would try and spin it rather than admit an error?
 
It was testified by the police. It forms part of the court documents.

There is a difference between Raffaele's testimony and what the police testified to. Why do you have to be so dishonest and obfuscate?
 
When he signed his police statement, that became a witness statement. A witness statement is court testimony if used in court, which it was.

No, it is NOT. A court testimony is just that. His statement doesn't even qualify as a deposition as he had no legal representation. :rolleyes:
 
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