Lindy Chamberlain exonerated - a dingo did it.

[Chris_Halkides]

some testimony from Joy Kuhl

Kuhl had devised an antibody test for hemoglobin F that was criticized for its lack of specificity. Here is an excerpt from some of her testimony:


Q: 'What about the real thing? What about the actual electrophoresis plates that you ended up with at the end of your tests? Do you produce those?'

A: 'No.'

Q: 'What about the actual Ouchterlony plates that you ended up with at the end of your tests? Do you produce those?'

A: 'No.'

Q: 'What about the actual gradient gel that you used in your tests? Do you produce that?'

A: 'No.'

Q: 'What about the plate that you used for attempt at a haptoglobin grouping? Do you produce that?'

A: 'No.'

Q: 'They are in Sydney, are they?'

A: 'No...'

Q: 'Where are they?'

A: 'They have been destroyed.'

Q: 'The plates are destroyed?'

A: 'Yes.'

Q: 'All of them?'

A: 'All of them.'

Q: 'Whose decision was that? Who is to take responsibility for this?'

A: 'I don't see it as anyone's responsibility. It is standard procedure in our laboratory.'

Q: 'Did you take any photographs of them? Or did you direct that any photographs be taken of this evidence, before you destroyed it?’

A: 'No. We have not the facilities for that....'

Q: 'Now, at the inquest, did you swear this? "Human fetal hemoglobin is different from adult hemoglobin. While a baby, or a fetus, is in uterus it does not have any adult hemoglobin.”'
A: 'Yes, I did.'

Q: 'That was demonstrably false.'

A: 'I used that statement for the - for purposes of making things clear and simple. It was not a false statement.'

Q: 'I say false in the sense of incorrect?'

A: 'It was incorrect, scientifically. It was used as an indication of the relative amounts.'

Q: 'You are perfectly entitled to give any explanation which you have, but the fact is, scientifically that statement is utterly incorrect.'

A: 'Scientifically, it is not correct. Yes...'

 

[Chris_Halkides]

She's a witch, I tell you

John Bryson wrote, "The witch myth was to be believed. Worth noting here are the words of laboratory technician Joy Kuhl, who identified baby's blood in the car. During the trial in Darwin, at a dinner at a hotel with police and journalists, she said, 'I have no doubt the woman is a witch.' She nodded. 'Seriously.'"

Ms. Kuhl's incorrect work with respect to blood is one of the reasons for this false conviction.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

What does Azaria mean?

Erratum: soz I've always been hopeless at names:

Azazel Leviticus 16,10 ESV:

but the goat on which the lot fell for Azazel shall be presented alive before the LORD to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away into the wilderness to Azazel.

Vixen,

"The book 1001 Unusual Baby Names in which Lindy found the name identified it as meaning “Blessed of God”, and a feminine form of Azariah, an Old Testament name. The coroner in the First Inquest (you may listen to the finding under the ‘recordings’ section) took extra effort to dispel this rumour, but it seems to hang around.

In the current book the complete book of baby names (Bruce Lansky 2003, Hinkler Books Pty. Ltd. Australia) Azaria is said to mean “helped by God”. Either way you translate the old Hebrew it comes nowhere near the rumor." link

Lindy was released in 1987, but it was not until 2012 that Azaria's death was officially ruled to be because of a dingo attack. In between 1987 and 2012 there have been other fatal or serious attacks. On a Lindy Chamberlain thread in Social Issues I posted a quote from forensic technician Joy Kuhl some here might find pertinent to the present case. I could make the argument that forensic technicians who have a strong belief in the innocence or guilt of the people whom they are investigating should be taken off that case, and Joy Kuhl and Rodney Miller would be two prime examples. I am not sure whether or not Stefanoni fits into this category.

 

[Vixen]

Vixen,

"The book 1001 Unusual Baby Names in which Lindy found the name identified it as meaning “Blessed of God”, and a feminine form of Azariah, an Old Testament name. The coroner in the First Inquest (you may listen to the finding under the ‘recordings’ section) took extra effort to dispel this rumour, but it seems to hang around.

In the current book the complete book of baby names (Bruce Lansky 2003, Hinkler Books Pty. Ltd. Australia) Azaria is said to mean “helped by God”. Either way you translate the old Hebrew it comes nowhere near the rumor." link

Lindy was released in 1987, but it was not until 2012 that Azaria's death was officially ruled to be because of a dingo attack. In between 1987 and 2012 there have been other fatal or serious attacks. On a Lindy Chamberlain thread in Social Issues I posted a quote from forensic technician Joy Kuhl some here might find pertinent to the present case. I could make the argument that forensic technicians who have a strong belief in the innocence or guilt of the people whom they are investigating should be taken off that case, and Joy Kuhl and Rodney Miller would be two prime examples. I am not sure whether or not Stefanoni fits into this category.

I broadly agree with that. OTOH you can't blame the police taking the disappearance of a baby seriously, especially with the blood drenched baby clothing. I am sure relgious bigotry had something to do with it.

It is fortuitous the matinee jacket turned up near lairs of dingoes, to solve the mystery once and for all.

Imagine, from the police POV, you have a couple of devoutly religious people who believe the bible is literal, and then their newborn baby goes missing in the wilderness with blood covered clothes left behind. Suppose this couple really did sacrifice their kid (I am NOT talking about the Chamberlains, here) at Ayers rock as some kind of "scapegoat"? How do the police solve it? There are no limits to the depths of depravity some people will fall.

ETA I didn't get it from rumour. I got it from Lindy's own book, THROUGH MY EYES that the police thought the name of her child suspicious as they were seventh day adventists and had found a bible of theirs with the specific references in Leviticus highlighted.

 

[Lerxst]

I think part of it is that many people thought it a ridiculous scenario.

As if you told me right now in the USA that an opossum had carried off an infant.

The animal was not seen as capable of the act.

Everybody was wrong, as it happens, but the anger was because they thought this woman had concocted a ridiculous story.

So you're saying that in 1985 people didn't think a wild dog could drag off and kill a baby? A possum is in no way even remotely comparable to a Dingo.

Well, this was before Discovery Channel and NatGeo became so popular on television, so I'll give you that.

 

[Psi Baba]

Imagine, from the police POV, you have a couple of devoutly religious people who believe the bible is literal, and then their newborn baby goes missing in the wilderness with blood covered clothes left behind. Suppose this couple really did sacrifice their kid (I am NOT talking about the Chamberlains, here) at Ayers rock as some kind of "scapegoat"? How do the police solve it? There are no limits to the depths of depravity some people will fall.

Why would they have any reason to even think that? Is that a common occurrence? Is it really easier to believe that than that the baby might have been snatched by a wild animal from a campsite in the wilderness?

 

[catsmate]

Why would they have any reason to even think that? Is that a common occurrence? Is it really easier to believe that than that the baby might have been snatched by a wild animal from a campsite in the wilderness?

Especially since this was quite plausible to the park rangers, who spoke at the first inquest.
Quite simply there was no case to answer, until one was fabricated.

 

[Elagabalus]

...There is a friendly rivalry and the jabs, while some may appear hard, are good natured. I am a New Zealand born Australian and I would be surprised if any of the board's Antipodean members saw it differently...

OK, but tell me. Does New Zealand have bogans?

 

[a_unique_person]

OK, but tell me. Does New Zealand have bogans?

Where do you think the bogans orginally came from?

 

[Samson]

Here is a new discussion of the case. A tourist goes missing and there occurs corroboration of Lindy Chamberlain's claim of what her baby was wearing when the dingo took her.
The question is posed would Lindy have ever been released without this fortuitous event.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11775859

Chamberlain's assertion that Azaria had been wearing a matinee jacket over the jumpsuit was not believed and went against her.

Heavily pregnant with daughter Kahlia, Lindy was sentenced to life without parole and imprisoned in Berrimah Women's jail.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

dingo attacks in history

So you're saying that in 1985 people didn't think a wild dog could drag off and kill a baby? A possum is in no way even remotely comparable to a Dingo.

Well, this was before Discovery Channel and NatGeo became so popular on television, so I'll give you that.

My understanding is that dingos were thought to be shy or cowardly, but if you dig back into 19th century Australian history, you can find some incidents of dingos attacking people. Also at one trial there were one highly regarded forensic witness for the prosecution that looked at one garment and said it was a pair scissors, not dingo teeth, that made some of the cuts. This expert did not actually do experiments to bolster his claims; however, when witnesses for the defense did perform experiments, they came to the opposite conclusion, and IIRC even one or two of the prosecution's witnesses modified their testimony on the basis of this new information. Another expert (Cameron) looked at a stain on a garment and said it was blood, without himself doing any testing.

One of the things that happened after the jacket was found (circa 1986) was that two immunochemistry experts (Boettcher and Ouchterlony) spoke about the problems with Joy Kuhl's tests for fetal hemoglobin. Also Professor Boettcher and others discussed the problems with the ortho-tolidine presumptive test for blood. The jacket might have been the single most critical element, but there were other pieces of evidence that starting going in the Chamberlain family's favor.

 

[John Nowak]

I get the impression that a typical Australian of the time "just knew" that dingos were not a "threat to people" and completely overlooked the fact that even a five year old child is much more of a challenge than a baby.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

even small children might be killed

"No similar dingo attack had been documented at the time, but in recent years the wild dogs native to Australia have been blamed for three attacks on children. In 2001, a 9-year old boy was attacked and killed by two dingoes on Fraser Island. In 2007, a 4-year old girl was also attacked, and survived, on Fraser Island. In 1998, a 13-month old old girl was grabbed by a dingo, which began to drag her away until her father intervened.This also was reported to have occurred at a camping area on Fraser Island." Link

 

[Chris_Halkides]

case study on blood testing

Chapter 8 of a new book, Forensic Science Reform (edited by W. Koen and C. M. Bowers), has a chapter on presumptive and confirmatory testing of blood. The case study is the Lindy and Michael Chamberlain case.

 

[fromdownunder]

I suppose that this thread is as good as anywhere to post that Michael died on 9 January 2017, aged 72.

Norm

 

[Chris_Halkides]

object lessons in forensics

fromdownunder,

I was very sorry to hear of his passing.

I am one of the coauthors of Chapter 8, and Dan Krane and Simon Ford used the Knox/Sollecito case as the featured case of Chapter 7, which is on DNA testing. One of the reasons why these two cases have generated so many threads and so many chapters or papers is that they are useful case studies in how not to do forensics.

 

[fuelair]

OK, but tell me. Does New Zealand have bogans?

It is known to have some buggers, so bogans is obviously not a stretch!!!!!

 

[fuelair]

Like the Italian **** up, this case had too many idiots in the police end mix!!!!!

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Journalist Malcolm Brown's memories

Here is a nice text and video remembrance of Michael Chamberlain from journalist Malcolm Brown. Author of the book Evil Angels, John Bryson offers his thoughts here.

 

[Samson]

Here is a nice text and video remembrance of Michael Chamberlain from journalist Malcolm Brown. Author of the book Evil Angels, John Bryson offers his thoughts here.

John Bryson hits hard here.

Jeremy Bamber and Mark Lundy need a similar heavy hitter to correct the monstrous crimes against them, both convicted with similar bogus forensics and condemned by vengeful villagers.