For Kapyong: Defending a historical Jesus

[dejudge]

Telling me what people believe is useless.

Indeed, it seems to be. But it is an indispensible historical procedure, so I must persist in it.

Well, if belief is an indispensable historical procedure then you will be able to historicise Satan the Devil and the Holy Ghost.

Jesus and Satan the Devil were contemporaries and were in conversation in the time of Pilate in the NT and a letter under the name of Paul mentions Satan.

Matthew 4.8--- Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.

Luke 4:5 ---- The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world

2 Corinthians 12:7--- And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

The Letter on the Council of Nicaea

And we believe also in One Holy Ghost

Based on your persistent absurdities the belief that Satan and a Holy Ghost exist is an indispensable historical procedure.

The story of Jesus was fabricated in the 2nd century or later to explain the Fall of the Jewish Temple.

That is most improbable. Such an explanation would be superfluous. Since the destruction of the Temple can be most adequately explained by the actions of the Roman legions who besieged and sacked the city, inventing a mad carpenter and making him die forty years before the destruction of the Temple, is the sort of thing that only demented people would contemplate as a falsified explanation of that event.

What absolute nonsense you post. Your story does not explain anything.

I am dealing with the evidence from writings of antiquity not what you invent in the 21st century.

Christian writings of antiquity do give explanations for the fall of the Jewish Temple Fell and it was because the Jews killed Jesus the Son of their own God.

Treatise Against the Jews attributed to Hippolytus

7. But why, O prophet, tell us, and for what reason, was the temple made desolate?

Was it on account of that ancient fabrication of the calf?

Was it on account of the idolatry of the people?

Was it for the blood of the prophets?

Was it for the adultery and fornication of Israel?

By no means, he says; for in all these transgressions they always found pardon open to them, and benignity; but it was because they killed the Son of their Benefactor, for He is coeternal with the Father.

Dialogue with Trypho attributed to Justin

you alone may suffer that which you now justly suffer; and that your land may be desolate, and your cities burned with fire....... Accordingly, these things have happened to you in fairness and justice, for you have slain the Just One...

The character called Paul was invented in the 2nd century or later as a "witness" to the fiction called Jesus and non-historical resurrection.


Why then is he never described as a witness of the resurrection or as ever having met Jesus? If he was invented for these nefarious purposes, why does he not fulfil them?

Again, you post more nonsense. You seem not to have read writings of antiquity or cannot remember.

In letters under the name of Paul it is claimed that Paul was one of the witnesses that God raised Jesus from the dead and that Paul and over 500 persons SAW him.

1 Corinthians 15:8 ---And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

1 Corinthians 15:15 ---Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

1 Corinthians 15:17 ---And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

1 Corinthians 11:23--- For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread

There are hundreds of writings from antiquity about Jesus and Paul which are all from the 2nd century or later.

All the stories of Jesus and Paul are 2nd century or later fiction.

It is most obvious that the authors of the fiction called the Pauline Corpus believed the stories of Jesus were true and fabricated the Pauline character as a witness since there was never any contemporary historical sources to support the monstrous fables of Jesus.

 

[Craig B]

All the stories of Jesus and Paul are 2nd century or later fiction.

It is most obvious that the authors of the fiction called the Pauline Corpus believed the stories of Jesus were true and fabricated the Pauline character as a witness since there was never any contemporary historical sources to support the monstrous fables of Jesus.

I think I'm starting to understand! You think that receiving information about what people believe is the same thing as believing what those people believe. But that is not correct. It is very far from being correct.

 

[Brainache]

I'm wondering why this MJ idea never occurred to ancient critics of Christianity. Jews and Greeks all had criticisms of the validity of Christianity, but they didn't use the argument that Jesus never existed...

http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-art...il&utm_term=0_c308bf8edb-8c5312dfc8-206686481

...The accusation that Mary attempted to cover up her extramarital pregnancy by fabricating a story about a virgin birth is not a virgin contribution of Toledot Yeshu. Such reports were widespread in the earliest pagan polemics against nascent Christianity, and allusions to it can be found in Talmudic literature. Unlike mere rumor, however, Toledot Yeshu creates a complete narrative episode. It has lust for an innocent maiden, seduction, deception, a cuckolded husband, and a pregnancy concealed by the adulteress through great cunning, a tale surprisingly reminiscent of the novellas in Boccaccio’s Decameron yet predating them by centuries. Thus Jesus was reborn as a “bastard, son of a menstruant,” an epithet that has stuck ever since within the Jewish world...

 

[dejudge]

I think I'm starting to understand! You think that receiving information about what people believe is the same thing as believing what those people believe. But that is not correct. It is very far from being correct.

Again, your post does not make sense. You make up stuff and then believe your own fiction. You actually put forward absurdities after absurdities and that belief is an indispensable historical procedure".

 

[dejudge]

I'm wondering why this MJ idea never occurred to ancient critics of Christianity. Jews and Greeks all had criticisms of the validity of Christianity, but they didn't use the argument that Jesus never existed...

http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-art...il&utm_term=0_c308bf8edb-8c5312dfc8-206686481

Well, well, well!!!

Have you ever wondered why Greeks and Romans did not use the argument that Jupiter, Apollo, Romulus and Remus never existed??

Have you ever wondered why Greeks and Romans did not use the argument that the Holy Ghost never existed???

It is obvious that people in antiquity believed fiction characters were real actual Gods.

The Nicene Creed is evidence that people in antiquity did believe Ghosts were figures of history.

The Letter on the Council of Nicaea

And we believe also in One Holy Ghost

 

[Brainache]

Well, well, well!!!

Have you ever wondered why Greeks and Romans did not use the argument that Jupiter, Apollo, Romulus and Remus never existed??

People who didn't believe in those gods did say that they never existed.

Do not pass by my epitaph, traveler.
But having stopped, listen and learn, then go your way.
There is no boat in Hades, no ferryman Charon
No caretaker Aiakos, no dog Cerberus.
All we who are dead below
Have become bones and ashes, but nothing else.
I have spoken to you honestly, go on, traveler,
Lest even while dead I seem babbling to you.1

http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=2517

There have always been Atheists, but Jesus Mythicists are something new.

Have you ever wondered why Greeks and Romans did not use the argument that the Holy Ghost never existed???

It is obvious that people in antiquity believed fiction characters were real actual Gods.

The Nicene Creed is evidence that people in antiquity did believe Ghosts were figures of history.

The Letter on the Council of Nicaea

But people who didn't believe in the divinity of Jesus, never argued that Jesus didn't exist as a man.

 

[dejudge]

People who didn't believe in those gods did say that they never existed.

There were People who believed Jesus existed but he was not born.

Examine Contra Faustus 2

1. Faustus said: Do I believe the gospel? Certainly.

Do I therefore believe that Christ was born? Certainly not. It does not follow that because I believe the gospel[/u][/b], as I do, I must therefore believe that Christ was born. This I do not believe...

Galatians 1:1

Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead.

Jesus was a fiction character without birth based on writings of antiquity.

There have always been Atheists, but Jesus Mythicists are something new.

People who believed Jesus existed were called Atheists.

First Apology attributed to Justin

Hence are we called atheists. And we confess that we are atheists.....

Jesus was always a fiction God like the Gods in Greek/Roman mythology

But people who didn't believe in the divinity of Jesus, never argued that Jesus didn't exist as a man.

People who did not believe in the the Divinity of Jesus claimed the Jesus story was a fiction of men and implied there was no mention of Jesus and Paul in all contemporary writings in the time of Tiberius and Claudius.

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/julian_apostate_galileans_1_text.htm

Against the Galileans

It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that the fabrication of the Galilaeans is a fiction of men composed by wickedness.

Though it has in it nothing divine, by making full use of that part of the soul which loves fable and is childish and foolish, it has induced men to believe that the monstrous tale is truth.

.


Against the Galileans

But if you can show me that one of these men is mentioned by the well-known writers of that time,----these events happened in the reign of Tiberius or Claudius,----then you may consider that I speak falsely about all matters.

The Jesus character was a product of fiction and without corroborative historical evidence.

Jesus and Paul never ever existed--they were manufactured in the 2nd century or later.

You will never ever be able to present any corroborative contemporary historical evidence for Jesus and Paul.

Never ever!!!

 

[Brainache]

There were People who believed Jesus existed but he was not born.

Examine Contra Faustus 2




Galatians 1:1

Jesus was a fiction character without birth based on writings of antiquity.




People who believed Jesus existed were called Atheists.

First Apology attributed to Justin

Jesus was always a fiction God like the Gods in Greek/Roman mythology




People who did not believe in the the Divinity of Jesus claimed the Jesus story was a fiction of men and implied there was no mention of Jesus and Paul in all contemporary writings in the time of Tiberius and Claudius.

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/julian_apostate_galileans_1_text.htm

Against the Galileans.


Against the Galileans

The Jesus character was a product of fiction and without corroborative historical evidence.

Jesus and Paul never ever existed--they were manufactured in the 2nd century or later.

You will never ever be able to present any corroborative contemporary historical evidence for Jesus and Paul.

Never ever!!!

You will never present any evidence for the authors of your fiction Jesus. Who were they? Where did they live? What evidence do you have that they invented these monstrous fables to account for the fall of the temple?

 

[dejudge]

You will never present any evidence for the authors of your fiction Jesus. Who were they? Where did they live? What evidence do you have that they invented these monstrous fables to account for the fall of the temple?

What absolute nonsense you post!!!

Your questions are hopelessly ridiculous.

They are like asking for the name and address of the person who forged the "TF" [Antiquities of the Jews 18.3.3].

Please tell me where Justin Martyr lived since he promoted the fiction that Jesus was born of a Ghost and a Virgin?

Please tell me where Origen lived because he put forward the fiction that Jesus was born of a Ghost and a Virgin?

Please tell me where Tertullian lived for his writings contain the fiction that Jesus was born of a Ghost and a Virgin?

Please tell me where Hippolytus lived since he wrote the fiction that Jesus was the Logos--God Creator?

Please tell me where Ignatius lived because he wrote the fiction that Jesus was God and born of a Ghost?

Please tell me where Eusebius lived because he wrote the fiction that Jesus was God and man--born of a Ghost and a Virgin?

Stories of Jesus and Paul have been found in 2nd century or later manuscripts and they are fiction.

Jesus was a water walking transfiguring son of a Ghost [the Lord from heaven] and the fiction character called Paul claimed he was a witness that God raised Jesus from the dead.

Jesus and Paul are completely undocumented in writings attributed to contemporary writers.

Jesus and Paul never ever existed.

No-one [Scholar or not] will ever present or even dare to present any contemporary historical evidence to support an historical Jesus or Paul.

No-one.

 

[Craig B]

Again, your post does not make sense. You make up stuff and then believe your own fiction. You actually put forward absurdities after absurdities and that belief is an indispensable historical procedure".

Now you'll tell me that I forge my own posts because I am a fiction. Meantime you are fabricating false statements and attributing them to me. I did not state that belief is an indispensable historical procedure. Our exchange was this

You: Telling me what people believe is useless.
Me: Indeed, it seems to be. But it is an indispensable historical procedure, so I must persist in it.​

That is, telling people what other people believe.
I later noted that

... You think that receiving information about what people believe is the same thing as believing what those people believe. But that is not correct. It is very far from being correct.

Your last post proves that you still confuse reports of belief with belief itself. This is a most grave error, which will utterly nullify any attempt you may feel moved to make to express useful ideas on this topic.

I can only hope that you did not in fact write your last post, and it was forged by religious fabricators acting on the orders of Severus Archontius.

 

[Brainache]

What absolute nonsense you post!!!

Your questions are hopelessly ridiculous.

They are like asking for the name and address of the person who forged the "TF" [Antiquities of the Jews 18.3.3].

Please tell me where Justin Martyr lived since he promoted the fiction that Jesus was born of a Ghost and a Virgin?

Please tell me where Origen lived because he put forward the fiction that Jesus was born of a Ghost and a Virgin?

Please tell me where Tertullian lived for his writings contain the fiction that Jesus was born of a Ghost and a Virgin?

Please tell me where Hippolytus lived since he wrote the fiction that Jesus was the Logos--God Creator?

Please tell me where Ignatius lived because he wrote the fiction that Jesus was God and born of a Ghost?

Please tell me where Eusebius lived because he wrote the fiction that Jesus was God and man--born of a Ghost and a Virgin?

All of those Authors referred to earlier works about the life of Jesus, so at least some of the gospels must have been written before those guys wrote their stuff... So we know that stories of Jesus existed before Origen, Justin Martyr etc...

Stories of Jesus and Paul have been found in 2nd century or later manuscripts and they are fiction.

Jesus was a water walking transfiguring son of a Ghost [the Lord from heaven] and the fiction character called Paul claimed he was a witness that God raised Jesus from the dead.

Jesus and Paul are completely undocumented in writings attributed to contemporary writers.

Jesus and Paul never ever existed.

Your conclusion does not follow from your premise. People can make all sorts of supernatural claims about real people. Supernatural claims about people are not in themselves proof that those people did not exist.

No-one [Scholar or not] will ever present or even dare to present any contemporary historical evidence to support an historical Jesus or Paul.

No-one.

It entirely depends on what you consider to be evidence. Historical evidence is not the same as evidence used in a courtroom.

 

[dejudge]

All of those Authors referred to earlier works about the life of Jesus, so at least some of the gospels must have been written before those guys wrote their stuff... So we know that stories of Jesus existed before Origen, Justin Martyr etc...

It does not follow that because there were earlier stories of Jesus that he was a figure of history.

You should know that there were earlier stories of Satan the Devil in Christian writings.

Examine the OT.

Job 1:6 ---Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

NIRV Matthew 4.5----Then the devil took Jesus to the holy city. He had him stand on the highest point of the temple.

Jesus and Satan were together in Jerusalem at the Jewish Temple in Christian
writings.

Jesus and Satan are fiction characters.

Your conclusion does not follow from your premise.

Your statement is fallacious. My argument is supported by the massive amount of writings from antiquity.

Christian writings actually state that Jesus was God Creator--the Logos--a water walking, transfiguring product of a Ghost without a human father.

Once there is no historical evidence for Jesus and Paul then it can be argued for infinity WITHOUT contradiction that Jesus and Paul were fiction characters.

...People can make all sorts of supernatural claims about real people. Supernatural claims about people are not in themselves proof that those people did not exist.

It is excessively absurd to assume Jesus existed because of the supernatural claims about him.

Jesus is described as a water walking transfiguring Son of a Ghost without a human father.

Jesus has zero history in contemporary writings.

Jesus is fiction and cannot be contradicted by any-one [Sholar or not]

There is simply no historical evidence to contradict the argument that Jesus was fiction from conception to ascension.

It entirely depends on what you consider to be evidence. Historical evidence is not the same as evidence used in a courtroom.

People who argue that Jesus was a figure of history should have first found out what "historical evidence" is.

You have zero historical evidence for your HJ in or out a courtroom.

The stories of Jesus are all 2nd century or later implausible fiction from conception to ascension.


It is easy to understand how the Jesus cult started--2nd century or later fiction stories were fabricated and people believed the Son of the Ghost[the Lord from heaven] did exist in the time of Pilate and that the Jewish Temple fell because the Jews killed him.

People in the Roman Empire did believe Ghosts were actual figure of history.

Romulus was the Son of an apparition in Plutarch's Romulus.

http://classics.mit.edu/Plutarch/romulus.html

Plutarch's Romulus

There was an oracle of Tethys in Tuscany which Tarchetius consulted, and received an answer that a virgin should give herself to the apparition, and that a son should be born of her, highly renowned, eminent for valour, good fortune, and strength of body.

Tarchetius told the prophecy to one of his own daughters, and commanded her to do this thing...

Jesus and Paul never ever existed based on the abundance of evidence from antiquity.

 

[Brainache]

It does not follow that because there were earlier stories of Jesus that he was a figure of history.

You should know that there were earlier stories of Satan the Devil in Christian writings.

Examine the OT.

Job 1:6 ---Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

NIRV Matthew 4.5----Then the devil took Jesus to the holy city. He had him stand on the highest point of the temple.

Jesus and Satan were together in Jerusalem at the Jewish Temple in Christian
writings.

Jesus and Satan are fiction characters.

Again your logic is flawed. There is no reason to think that Jesus never existed just because supernatural events are included in the stories. That sort of thing occurs in most stories from that time, even when they are about real people.

It isn't proof that Jesus was historical, but it also isn't proof that Jesus was fictional.

Your statement is fallacious. My argument is supported by the massive amount of writings from antiquity.

Christian writings actually state that Jesus was God Creator--the Logos--a water walking, transfiguring product of a Ghost without a human father.

Once there is no historical evidence for Jesus and Paul then it can be argued for infinity WITHOUT contradiction that Jesus and Paul were fiction characters.

It can be, but repetition doesn't make it logical. Your position is not supported by anything except your uninformed opinion.

It is excessively absurd to assume Jesus existed because of the supernatural claims about him.

Jesus is described as a water walking transfiguring Son of a Ghost without a human father.

Jesus has zero history in contemporary writings.

Jesus is fiction and cannot be contradicted by any-one [Sholar or not]

There is simply no historical evidence to contradict the argument that Jesus was fiction from conception to ascension.

There is no evidence for anyone inventing a fictional Jesus. There is lots of evidence for Messianic Second Temple Jewish sects. There is evidence for Messiah claimants. There is evidence for the existence of Christians.

There is no evidence for your fiction authors inventing "monstrous fables".

People who argue that Jesus was a figure of history should have first found out what "historical evidence" is.

You have zero historical evidence for your HJ in or out a courtroom.

The stories of Jesus are all 2nd century or later implausible fiction from conception to ascension.


It is easy to understand how the Jesus cult started--2nd century or later fiction stories were fabricated and people believed the Son of the Ghost[the Lord from heaven] did exist in the time of Pilate and that the Jewish Temple fell because the Jews killed him.

People in the Roman Empire did believe Ghosts were actual figure of history.

Romulus was the Son of an apparition in Plutarch's Romulus.

http://classics.mit.edu/Plutarch/romulus.html

Plutarch's Romulus


Jesus and Paul never ever existed based on the abundance of evidence from antiquity.

Your argument is nonsense. Please learn how Historians analyse these things, because what you are doing is not useful to anyone.

 

[dejudge]

Again your logic is flawed. There is no reason to think that Jesus never existed just because supernatural events are included in the stories. That sort of thing occurs in most stories from that time, even when they are about real people.

It isn't proof that Jesus was historical, but it also isn't proof that Jesus was fictional.

You don't know what you are talking about. You seem to have no idea that an argument is not proof.

An argument REQUIRES supporting evidence.

The abundance of evidence from antiquity support the argument that Kesus and Paul were fiction and invented in the 2nd century or later.

Christian writings [actual manuscripts dated from the 2nd century] from antiquity actually state Jesus was a water walking transfiguring Son of a Ghost without a human father--the Logos, God Creator--the Lord from heaven.

Jesus is fiction like Satan, the Holy Ghost and God.

It can be, but repetition doesn't make it logical. Your position is not supported by anything except your uninformed opinion.

Your statement is horribly fallacious. It is the HJ argument that is based directly on flawed assumptions and opinion without a shred of historical evidence.

My argument is supported by actual manuscripts from antiquity. See some of fiction stories in NT Papyri and NT Codices.

Jesus is documented as the son of a Ghost in NT Papyri 1, Codex Sinaiticus and Alexandrinus among hundreds of manuscripts from antiquity.

http://nttranscripts.uni-muenster.de/AnaServer?NTtranscripts+0+start.anv

Matthew 1:18----του δε ιησου χριστου η γενεσις ουτως ην μνηστευθεισης της μητρος αυτου μαριας τω ιωσηφ πριν η συνελθειν αυτους ευρεθη εν γαστρι εχουσα εκ πνευματος αγιου [N-A28 01]

του δε ιησου χριστου η γενεσις ουτως ην μνηστευθεισης της μητρος αυτου μαριας τω ιωσηφ πριν η συνελθειν αυτους ευρεθη εν γαστρι εχουσα εκ [πνευματος] [αγιου] [P1]

του δε χριστου ιησου η γενεσις ουτως ην μνηστευθεισης της μητρος αυτου μαριας τω ιωσηφ πριν η συνελθειν αυτους ευρεθη εν γαστρι εχουσα εκ πνευματος αγιου [03]

There is no evidence for anyone inventing a fictional Jesus. There is lots of evidence for Messianic Second Temple Jewish sects. There is evidence for Messiah claimants. There is evidence for the existence of Christians.

What complete nonsense you post. There is ZERO mention of any character called Jesus of Nazareth or Paul the Pharisee of the tribe of Benjamin in any contemporary writings.

Jesus of Nazareth and Paul are ALWAYS found in 2nd century or later Christian writings.

The story that Jesus walked for miles on water and instantly transfigured must be invented fiction.

The story that Jesus was born of a Ghost and a Virgin must be invented fiction.

The story that Jesus "killed" a tree by the root simply by talking must be invented fiction.

The stories that Jesus instantly made the blind see, the deaf hear and the dumb talk must be invented fiction.

The story that Pilate had Jesus crucified after finding no fault with him must be invented fiction.

The stories that Jesus resurrected and ate food after must be invented fiction.

The stories that Jesus spoke to his disciples after the resurrection then ascended in a cloud must be invented fiction.

There is no evidence for your fiction authors inventing "monstrous fables".

Again, you post inexcusable nonsense.

The monstrous fables MUST have been invented because they were never historical accounts.

The claim in gJohn that Jesus was the Logos--God Creator from the beginning MUST have been invented fiction.

Jesus and Paul are monstrous fiction characters.

Your argument is nonsense. Please learn how Historians analyse these things, because what you are doing is not useful to anyone.

Again, you post more blatant absurdities. You seem not to know or can't remember that Scholars have argued that Jesus and Paul were non-historical.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_criticism

The Dutch school of radical criticism started in 1878 with a publication by Allard Pierson, who denied Pauline authorship of Galatians.

He was fiercely attacked by his colleague A. D. Loman, but two years later also Loman abandoned the historicity of Paul.
Similarly, W.C. van Manen, who had written a doctoral thesis defending the authenticity of 1 Thessalonians, wrote in 1889 that he had come to the same conclusions as Loman. Also the philosopher G. J. P. J. Bolland was a part of this movement.[1]

Jesus and Paul are monstrous fiction characters--they never ever existed.

Jesus was fabricated at least after C 115 CE or after the writings of Tacitus.

Paul was invented sometime after c 175-180 CE or at least after "True Discourse" attributed to Celsus.

 

[Brainache]

You don't know what you are talking about. You seem to have no idea that an argument is not proof.

An argument REQUIRES supporting evidence.

The abundance of evidence from antiquity support the argument that Kesus and Paul were fiction and invented in the 2nd century or later.

Christian writings [actual manuscripts dated from the 2nd century] from antiquity actually state Jesus was a water walking transfiguring Son of a Ghost without a human father--the Logos, God Creator--the Lord from heaven.

Jesus is fiction like Satan, the Holy Ghost and God.




Your statement is horribly fallacious. It is the HJ argument that is based directly on flawed assumptions and opinion without a shred of historical evidence.

My argument is supported by actual manuscripts from antiquity. See some of fiction stories in NT Papyri and NT Codices.

Jesus is documented as the son of a Ghost in NT Papyri 1, Codex Sinaiticus and Alexandrinus among hundreds of manuscripts from antiquity.

http://nttranscripts.uni-muenster.de/AnaServer?NTtranscripts+0+start.anv






What complete nonsense you post. There is ZERO mention of any character called Jesus of Nazareth or Paul the Pharisee of the tribe of Benjamin in any contemporary writings.

Jesus of Nazareth and Paul are ALWAYS found in 2nd century or later Christian writings.

The story that Jesus walked for miles on water and instantly transfigured must be invented fiction.

The story that Jesus was born of a Ghost and a Virgin must be invented fiction.

The story that Jesus "killed" a tree by the root simply by talking must be invented fiction.

The stories that Jesus instantly made the blind see, the deaf hear and the dumb talk must be invented fiction.

The story that Pilate had Jesus crucified after finding no fault with him must be invented fiction.

The stories that Jesus resurrected and ate food after must be invented fiction.

The stories that Jesus spoke to his disciples after the resurrection then ascended in a cloud must be invented fiction.




Again, you post inexcusable nonsense.

The monstrous fables MUST have been invented because they were never historical accounts.

The claim in gJohn that Jesus was the Logos--God Creator from the beginning MUST have been invented fiction.

Jesus and Paul are monstrous fiction characters.



Again, you post more blatant absurdities. You seem not to know or can't remember that Scholars have argued that Jesus and Paul were non-historical.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_criticism



Jesus and Paul are monstrous fiction characters--they never ever existed.

Jesus was fabricated at least after C 115 CE or after the writings of Tacitus.

Paul was invented sometime after c 175-180 CE or at least after "True Discourse" attributed to Celsus.

This is all nonsense. It literally makes no sense.

I understand that you have made up your mind on this rubbish, but do you realise that you haven't convinced anyone?

No one in Academia will ever share your opinion. Maybe you should think about why that is...

 

[dejudge]

This is all nonsense. It literally makes no sense.

I understand that you have made up your mind on this rubbish, but do you realise that you haven't convinced anyone?

No one in Academia will ever share your opinion. Maybe you should think about why that is...

Your statement is blatant propaganda and open fiction. You have only exposed that you don't know what you are talking about.

Multiple Scholars for over a hundred years have argued that Jesus and Paul were not figures of history.

No-one in Academia will ever present historical evidence for their Jesus and Paul.

No-one can.

Jesus and Paul are all products of 2nd century or later fiction.

 

[Craig B]

Jesus was fabricated at least after C 115 CE or after the writings of Tacitus.

Paul was invented sometime after c 175-180 CE or at least after "True Discourse" attributed to Celsus.

Celsus is a monstrous fiction character of whom no manuscripts are to be found. He is a fabrication of monstrous fiction character Origen

It is possible to reconstruct the text of Celsus from Origen's answer, a task which was accomplished by Jachmann in 1846, and more successfully by Keim in 1873.​

So this monstrosity of fiction is the work of nineteenth century "reconstructions", or more probably inventions.

 

[dejudge]

Celsus is a monstrous fiction character of whom no manuscripts are to be found. He is a fabrication of monstrous fiction character Origen

It is possible to reconstruct the text of Celsus from Origen's answer, a task which was accomplished by Jachmann in 1846, and more successfully by Keim in 1873.​

So this monstrosity of fiction is the work of nineteenth century "reconstructions", or more probably inventions.

Your claim that Origen and Celsus are monstrous fiction characters does not help the HJ argument or does not provide any historical evidence for Jesus and Paul.


Scholars have admitted that Jesus stories and Epistles in the NT are compilations of fiction, forgeries and false attribution.

2nd century or later fiction, forgeries and false attribution are historically worthless to argue that Jesus and Paul existed.

 

[Craig B]

Your claim that Origen and Celsus are monstrous fiction characters does not help the HJ argument or does not provide any historical evidence for Jesus and Paul.


Scholars have admitted that Jesus stories and Epistles in the NT are compilations of fiction, forgeries and false attribution.

2nd century or later fiction, forgeries and false attribution are historically worthless to argue that Jesus and Paul existed.

But equally they are of no value to argue that monstrous fiction Tacitus existed, because if Jesus was invented subsequent to the forgery works of monstrous fiction Tacitus, we have no more proof that monstrous fiction Tacitus existed than we have that monstrous fiction Jesus existed.

In the case of monstrous fiction Celsus, his fabricated works are referenced by monstrous fiction Origen, but cobbled together, as I have shown, by nineteenth century fabricators.

You have proved that John Hardouin was right. Nobody has ever existed except gangs of forgers, but unfortunately we have no evidence for them, so perhaps even these gangs are a monstrous fiction, and nobody exists at all.

Here is the so-called "evidence" fabricated in the name of monstrous fiction Origen.

Codex Vaticanus Graecus 386. [13 th century] Also contains the panegyric on Origen by Gregory Thaumaturgus, which is prefixed likewise to many of its copies ... In the 15th or 16th century a leaf had disappeared from Bk. 2, c. 13 ff. However as early as the 14th century, passages by Celsus had been erased. For example in Bk. 1, 32 a slander about the birth of Christ had been erased, perhaps as blasphemous.​

And no manuscript of monstrous fiction Celsus has ever been found!

 

[dejudge]

But equally they are of no value to argue that monstrous fiction Tacitus existed, because if Jesus was invented subsequent to the forgery works of monstrous fiction Tacitus, we have no more proof that monstrous fiction Tacitus existed than we have that monstrous fiction Jesus existed.

In the case of monstrous fiction Celsus, his fabricated works are referenced by monstrous fiction Origen, but cobbled together, as I have shown, by nineteenth century fabricators.

You have proved that John Hardouin was right. Nobody has ever existed except gangs of forgers, but unfortunately we have no evidence for them, so perhaps even these gangs are a monstrous fiction, and nobody exists at all.

As expected you cannot and will never present any historical evidence for your Jesus but waste time posting incoherent nonsense and open fiction.

In addition, you persist in mis-representing Hardouin--he did not claim "nobody existed except the forgers".