Minority Groups "Special Rights"

Why? Why is it such a "problem" that the two genders aren't interested in the same stuff to the same point?

That's not the problem, the problem is when both genders are interested but one is told that it's not the kind of work for them by the industry being hard for them to get into and structured against them from the very start, then having it written off as, well they just aren't interested.
 
As I said once you have tried to achieve representation and failed then we will talk. Until then fix your problems.

That doesn't answer my question, and appear to be circular logic.

That's not the problem, the problem is when both genders are interested but one is told that it's not the kind of work for them by the industry being hard for them to get into and structured against them from the very start, then having it written off as, well they just aren't interested.

It seems to me like when the thing that you say is not the problem exists, it's assume to be the thing you say is the problem.
 
It seems to me like when the thing that you say is not the problem exists, it's assume to be the thing you say is the problem.

While this sentence appears to make little sense, the whole thing is about making sure that no other reasons exist for non-participation. If you have covered all your bases and are still finding that persons X are partaking in profession Y at a reduced level than expected, then you can say that they aren't as interested. You can't just declare that they aren't interested based on just their non-participation.

This is what AA does. It removes all the other reasons.

It works to change society's views on what is work for person X and what is work for person Y.
It works to give the same training opportunities to everyone.
It works to remove hostile environments in workplaces making them more attractive.
It works to make sure that hiring and promotion is equable rather than being dominated by one sector of the workforce.

If when all of that is done, there are still more persons X applying than persons Y applying that would be expected by workforce numbers, then and only then can you say that the difference is in the preferences of persons X and Y, and that such a difference between them is acceptable.

You want to skip all the other steps and just assume that it's because of preference right at the start. It's like a doctor assuming that their patient with a sore arm has bone cancer without actually eliminating any other sources of pain, and without doing any tests to determine if it actually is cancer.
 
While this sentence appears to make little sense, the whole thing is about making sure that no other reasons exist for non-participation. If you have covered all your bases and are still finding that persons X are partaking in profession Y at a reduced level than expected, then you can say that they aren't as interested. You can't just declare that they aren't interested based on just their non-participation.

Yes yes, but I meant: from the employer's end. Sure, the state can have initiatives to encourage women and minorities to seek employment in the fields that interest them and try to seed interest by informing them through various programs, but in the end the employer can't be expected to do this task: all I think he can do is provide a desirable, discrimination- and harrassment-free environment. Archie seemed to say that it was still the employer's responsibility here:

Well to address your concern in law then if no people of group x are applying then you wont be turning them away unfairly and thus will have no cause for concern.

My personal view is that is not enough. You cant just sit back and wash your hands of those situations. If your business isnt attractive to people outside a small select group then fix that.

If you try everything and still nothing changes then we can listen to the reasons. Not before.

I think that's wrong. As an employer it's none of my business why people don't choose to go into my field.


PhantomWolf said:
You want to skip all the other steps and just assume that it's because of preference right at the start.

Please don't tell me what I want. What I'm saying is that the differences exist and may not be something that can or should be solved.
 
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Yes yes, but I meant: from the employer's end. Sure, the state can have initiatives to encourage women and minorities to seek employment in the fields that interest them and try to seed interest by informing them through various programs, but in the end the employer can't be expected to do this task: all I think he can do is provide a desirable, discrimination- and harrassment-free environment. Archie seemed to say that it was still the employer's responsibility here:

These parts.... "initiatives to encourage women and minorities to seek employment in the fields that interest them and try to seed interest by informing them through various programs" are on the state, through schools and the like.

These parts.... "provide a desirable, discrimination- and harassment-free environment." are on the employer, as well as making sure that hiring and promotion policies are also discrimination free.

The Employer might want to try and encourage more applications from minorities by partnering with schools and training collages, but there is no legal requirement for that. The Legal requirement is to make sure that they have the right policies and procedures in place and to make sure that those policies are functioning correctly. If they have done what they need to do under law, and they aren't getting applications, then not much they can do. If they aren't getting applications, but their competitors are and there are a good number of people in minority classes applying and working in the field, then they probably need to sort something out. If they have got all their systems in place, as have their competitors and none of them are getting applicants and there aren't a lot of people in minority classes applying and working in the field, then they don't have to try and force more into it.

I think that's wrong. As an employer it's none of my business why people don't choose to go into my field.

It is when it's your doing that is the cause, so the law makes it so that the employers are not the cause of it

What I'm saying is that the differences exist and may not be something that can or should be solved.

Which is something that can only be determined once all other possible causes are eliminated. That's what AA does, it eliminates all other causes and only then allows the excuse that minorities aren't interested, instead of doing what you are and trucking it out first.
 
Yes yes, but I meant: from the employer's end. Sure, the state can have initiatives to encourage women and minorities to seek employment in the fields that interest them and try to seed interest by informing them through various programs, but in the end the employer can't be expected to do this task: all I think he can do is provide a desirable, discrimination- and harrassment-free environment. Archie seemed to say that it was still the employer's responsibility here:


I think that's wrong. As an employer it's none of my business why people don't choose to go into my field.


Please don't tell me what I want. What I'm saying is that the differences exist and may not be something that can or should be solved.

Agree.

Instead of requiring representation in a certain occupation (which may have many have many different types of jobs and industries within it), the government would do better to partner with employers to assess if there is really a gap and if anything in the employers control can address it.

For example, Canada can link all 500 or so employers that fall under the act (mainly banking, transportation, and communication) to a Job Bank.
Any available job would be required to be there and the government could focus marketing these postings to their designated groups. Instead of having auditors chasing paperwork, you'd shift resources to looking at the real pool of qualified and interested applicants available.

A shared database can hold all information about the applicant, their group designation (if they disclose it), education, qualifications, experience, etc..
Employers mark who was selected to interview and who was eventually chosen. Reasons are given as to the rejected candidates in the groups. Things like: unlicensed in Canada, limited english, declined employment offer to work instead at Fortune 50 company, etc...

From this we would learn so much more about any actual hiring bias and determine what was appropriate to reduce it. We would also learn if there were other areas to address such as bias in trade training, licensing, university programs, and the culture of the group itself (ie self-segregating in a particular niche). How many want a short term job and how many are interested in a career in it?

There would be no penalty for having poor reasons that indicate bias. This is about getting the employers on board with what is supposed to be access to untapped talent. Changing their entrenched viewpoints to see REAL diversity benefits hit their bottom line. If top management isn't eventually leading efforts and only complying, then any well-intentioned policy will backfire on the very people it was designed to help.

The policy they have now is lazy, expensive, one-sided, fosters stigma and resentment, and just isn't working.
 
As I said once you have tried to achieve representation and failed then we will talk. Until then fix your problems.

I see no reason to assume that the default should be equal representation in any field.

Here's an example: I own a yoga studio. I would love to hire more qualified male teachers. They tend to get more students because there are more female students and they like to take classes from men. The most popular yoga teachers tend to be men, and at the top of the field I'd say that men outnumber women, or at least approach 50% (that's just a guess based on, for instance, the number of male vs female teachers travelling and giving workshops).

But, when it comes to finding male teachers to hire, they are simply far outnumbered by women. They aren't non-existent, and if I were to try to make up for their underrepresentation in my employees I could go out of my way to hire less qualified (in my subjective opinion anyway) men. But instead, so far, of the 7 teachers I've hired over the years only one was male and he was extremely part time (he taught one class/week) and didn't work out well.

I don't think that this is because my studio is unattractive to male teachers as a place of employment, but rather just because fewer men do yoga. As to why that is, as a man who has been practicing yoga for almost 20 years, I'd still suggest that it really does have to do with a difference between the genders.

You may suggest that this is a special case, but I don't think so. I suspect that every field will appeal, on average, differently to the different genders. And that's not a bad thing, it just is.
 
These parts.... "initiatives to encourage women and minorities to seek employment in the fields that interest them and try to seed interest by informing them through various programs" are on the state, through schools and the like.

These parts.... "provide a desirable, discrimination- and harassment-free environment." are on the employer, as well as making sure that hiring and promotion policies are also discrimination free.

The Employer might want to try and encourage more applications from minorities by partnering with schools and training collages, but there is no legal requirement for that. The Legal requirement is to make sure that they have the right policies and procedures in place and to make sure that those policies are functioning correctly. If they have done what they need to do under law, and they aren't getting applications, then not much they can do. If they aren't getting applications, but their competitors are and there are a good number of people in minority classes applying and working in the field, then they probably need to sort something out. If they have got all their systems in place, as have their competitors and none of them are getting applicants and there aren't a lot of people in minority classes applying and working in the field, then they don't have to try and force more into it.



It is when it's your doing that is the cause, so the law makes it so that the employers are not the cause of it



Which is something that can only be determined once all other possible causes are eliminated. That's what AA does, it eliminates all other causes and only then allows the excuse that minorities aren't interested, instead of doing what you are and trucking it out first.

I think we've reached an approximate agreement, here. I'll step back out and think about all this for a while.
 
I see no reason to assume that the default should be equal representation in any field.

And I see no reason to assume that the current representation is correct simply by virtue of it being the status quo. So rather than assume either way I propose that you attempt to increase the representation to a more equal footing BEFORE explaining why you can't.

And again, if you aren't turning away qualified men for your yoga teaching roles then nobody will have any complaint against you in law.
 
And I see no reason to assume that the current representation is correct simply by virtue of it being the status quo. So rather than assume either way I propose that you attempt to increase the representation to a more equal footing BEFORE explaining why you can't.

Attempting to increase representation to a more equal footing is only a good idea if you assume that there is a problem. It requires more than simply saying "we don't know if there is a problem or not", since if there isn't a problem, that increase is a negative outcome. If, for instance, I were to selectively go searching for male yoga teachers I'd miss out on females who were equally or more qualified, when I don't have any reason to believe that there's a problem that needs to be addressed.

I can see a discrepancy in the number of applicants being reason to look at one's policies or workplace culture to see if there is a plausible cause there and if found address that. That may be what you're suggesting and if so I can agree.
 
Attempting to increase representation to a more equal footing is only a good idea if you assume that there is a problem.

And not attempting to do it is only a good idea if you assume there isn't a problem. So what next?

'But Group X don't want to do Y' has been a common refrain for many things in the past. And it wasn't true then so I'm not going to accept it's true now without doing the work to find out first.

And no, searching for good male yoga teachers doesn't stop good female yoga teachers applying. They are applying anyway. And you can still hire them if they are the best for the job.

In fact it seems that is more or less exactly what you have been doing.
 
'But Group X don't want to do Y' has been a common refrain for many things in the past. And it wasn't true then so I'm not going to accept it's true now without doing the work to find out first.

But how do we know it's not true. Do we have statistics on what people 'want' for a great number of individual fields?
 
We don't know. So you don't get to claim it is true unless you show it to be the case.

If you can't show that there IS a problem, you should not assume that there is until you're done investigating. So if you, as you say, don't know, why assume that there is a problem, which you do right here:

As I said once you have tried to achieve representation and failed then we will talk. Until then fix your problems.

Emphasis added.
 
If you can't show that there IS a problem, you should not assume that there is until you're done investigating. So if you, as you say, don't know, why assume that there is a problem, which you do right here:



Emphasis added.

The problem is the under representation of minorities in your hypothetical company.
 

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