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Proof of Immortality, the IV league

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Jabba,

Wouldn't you agree that nothing you claim can be afforded any credence given your history?

I will simply assume agreement in the event you do not address this.
 
...if the incident happened at all, and if the patient remembered it accurately, and if the book's author reported the patient's statements accurately. We have no way of verifying any of those things.


Well, yes, but my point is that even taking the story at face value there is nothing there that requires a supernatural explanation.
 
Fudbucker,

- I'll try to tackle your points, one at a time...

- The anecdotes to which I refer as being evidence for immateriality are those in which the patient is said to know of events and/or situations of which he/she should not know through normal means. Sorry about all that fancy wording.
- I'm not claiming any large degree of evidence -- just that between the NDE evidence and the evidence from paranormal studies in general, the prior probability of immateriality has to be at least .001. I do think that the prior probability is actually much more, but that virtually any possibility is enough for my purposes here.

Nope, no such thing until you rule out confounding factors.

A point you ignore, so the chance of immateriality is zero
 
Wrong, very wrong. You continue to ignore the very obvious fact that the scientific model is considerably more likely than your model which includes an immaterial soul. And since you've given up trying to prove "immortality" and now claim to be trying to show the existence of "immaterial", you ABSOLUTELY need more than "virtually any possibility."


He's trying to prove that immaterial selves exist using an argument that relies on a claim that if immaterial selves exist the likelihood of his existence is zero.
 
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Except that data is very likely to be unreliable. We will hear about those who find water and survive. An unknown number didn't.

There is a circularity in the fact that "finding water" is a given for "survive and tell the tale".

You know, statistics are only, at the very best, as reliable as the input data.

Hans


In this problem the data are completely reliable. I said that we are a particular explorers club. We know that in the history of the club, we sent exactly two explorers into the desert. They both came back. 2 in; 2 out. That's the data.
 
I hypothesize that a wizard used his magic to rescue them.

What does the maths say about that hypothesis?
 
Fudbucker,

- I'll try to tackle your points, one at a time...

- The anecdotes to which I refer as being evidence for immateriality are those in which the patient is said to know of events and/or situations of which he/she should not know through normal means. Sorry about all that fancy wording.
- I'm not claiming any large degree of evidence -- just that between the NDE evidence and the evidence from paranormal studies in general, the prior probability of immateriality has to be at least .001. I do think that the prior probability is actually much more, but that virtually any possibility is enough for my purposes here.

How very odd.

Playing the game by your own rules, by your continued silence to me you continue to admit that you do not have a single bit of any kind of evidence for the existence of a "soul", much less its "immortality"; yet you continue to go on as if you had not.

How...very...odd.
 
One of the most dishonest statements I have ever seen.

It is also funny that Mr. Savage's position is non-reciprocal.

By his own rules, his continued silence to me is an admission that he has not a single bit of any kind of evidence of the existence of a "soul", much less its "immortality".

...as if that needed to be admitted...
 
Why don't you work out the probability and let us know. Show your work.
Because I lack the mathematical skills to do so.

But, if I have interpreted your maths and hypothetical scenario properly, you could insert any alternative to "God guided them to water" and conclude that "the data are more consistent with X than with the random hypothesis by a factor of 850." where X could be that a wizard guided them to water, a quantum fluctuation teleported them to water, elves found them and carried them to water, etc.

In your scenario, you can replace "God guided them to water" with any hypothesis you want such as "a wizard guided them to water" and conclude that it is more consistent by the random hypothesis by a factor of 850.

Does that tell us anything about the actual likelihood of wizards (or elves or quantum fluctuations) being responsible for rescuing stranded explorers?
 
In this problem the data are completely reliable. I said that we are a particular explorers club. We know that in the history of the club, we sent exactly two explorers into the desert. They both came back. 2 in; 2 out. That's the data.

Uhm, and how is that evidence for god?

... Anyway, I find constructed scenarios rather uninteresting. You can always construct a scenario that seems compelling in some way. And what then? Should we sit down and wait for it to happen in reality?

Hans
 
Because I lack the mathematical skills to do so.

But, if I have interpreted your maths and hypothetical scenario properly, you could insert any alternative to "God guided them to water" and conclude that "the data are more consistent with X than with the random hypothesis by a factor of 850." where X could be that a wizard guided them to water, a quantum fluctuation teleported them to water, elves found them and carried them to water, etc.

In your scenario, you can replace "God guided them to water" with any hypothesis you want such as "a wizard guided them to water" and conclude that it is more consistent by the random hypothesis by a factor of 850.


That's correct.

Does that tell us anything about the actual likelihood of wizards (or elves or quantum fluctuations) being responsible for rescuing stranded explorers?


As I have explained, it tells us the amount by which the new evidence should increase our prior odds for the hypothesis. Multiply your prior odds* for wizards helping people out of the desert by magic by 850, and let us know how likely you now think that hypothesis is.

_______________________

*Use the simple odds: P(wizards) / [1 - P(wizards)]
 
Fudbucker,

- I'll try to tackle your points, one at a time...

- The anecdotes to which I refer as being evidence for immateriality are those in which the patient is said to know of events and/or situations of which he/she should not know through normal means. Sorry about all that fancy wording.
- I'm not claiming any large degree of evidence -- just that between the NDE evidence and the evidence from paranormal studies in general, the prior probability of immateriality has to be at least .001. I do think that the prior probability is actually much more, but that virtually any possibility is enough for my purposes here.

No, they aren't. For example, in the one you have most recently cited, the patient said that an operation was carried out in an operating theatre, that surgical waste was placed in a yellow bag, and that someone was having their leg amputated, all of which they could have known via perfectly normal means.
Mojo,
- This is the case to which you were responding.

LL,
- How about the following case?

CASE 3.1. Observing an Amputation Jean-Jacques Charbonier, a French anesthetist-ICU doctor at the Capio Clinique Saint-Jean Languedoc in Toulouse, France, became known for his work in the area of NDEs and life after death. In the documentary Untimely Departure: Near-Death Experience (a translation of the French-language documentary Faux Départ— Enquète sur les EMI/ NDE), he mentioned a relevant case of a patient of his: I operated on a woman under general anesthetic. And when she woke up, she described her operation as if she had been on the ceiling. Not only that, she also described the operation that took place in the next theater, the amputation of a leg. She saw the leg; she saw them put the leg in a yellow bag. She couldn’t possibly have invented that and she described it as soon as she woke up. I checked afterwards and the operation had indeed taken place in the next theater. A leg had been amputated at the very same time that she was under anesthetic, and thus totally disconnected from the world. SOURCE Barkallah, S. (Producer & Director). (2015). Untimely departure [motion picture, English translation]. Berre l’Etang, France: S17. TV 2015. Retrieved from https:// ​ www.s17. tv/ ​ documentaires/ ​ faux-depart.html

Rivas, Titus; Dirven,Anny; Smit,Rudolf. The Self Does Not Die: Verified Paranormal Phenomena from Near-Death Experiences (pp. 58-59). International Association for Near-Death Studies. Kindle Edition.

- So sure, all of that could be invented, the patient could have had other knowledge of what was going on next door or, her claims could have been lucky guesses. However, if a person were not already convinced that there is no such thing as immateriality, he/she would tend to take the Dr's word as to what happened and as to the likelihood of prior knowledge or lucky guesses.
- There might be all sorts of evidence against the existence of immateriality, but this is a little bit of evidence for immateriality, and there are all sorts of similar cases. All I'm asking for agreement on is that the overall prior probability of immateriality be at least .001.
 
Mojo,
- This is the case to which you were responding.



- So sure, all of that could be invented, the patient could have had other knowledge of what was going on next door or, her claims could have been lucky guesses. However, if a person were not already convinced that there is no such thing as immateriality, he/she would tend to take the Dr's word as to what happened and as to the likelihood of prior knowledge or lucky guesses.
- There might be all sorts of evidence against the existence of immateriality, but this is a little bit of evidence for immateriality, and there are all sorts of similar cases. All I'm asking for agreement on is that the overall prior probability of immateriality be at least .001.

No, nothing in your anecdote rises to the level of evidence. For all the reasons outlined by earlier Loss Leader, but also specifically here because we know that people wake up in the middle of surgery on a regular basis. It's the subject of recent studies. (I know, it happened to me.) We have no descriptions of the operating theaters so we have no reason to think that that the patient didn't wake up and see these things.

And, even with all of that, you still refuse to acknowledge that your model involving an immaterial self is rather significantly less likely than the scientific model in which the self and the body are one and the same.

But wait, there's more! As you haven't responded to Slowvehicle, by your own rules of debate, you have acknowledged that you have no evidence of immaterial selves or immortality. Which means, game over, Jabba loses. No more resets, the game is done.
 
- So sure, all of that could be invented, the patient could have had other knowledge of what was going on next door or, her claims could have been lucky guesses.


Indeed, so no supernatural explanation is required.

However, if a person were not already convinced that there is no such thing as immateriality, he/she would tend to take the Dr's word as to what happened and as to the likelihood of prior knowledge or lucky guesses.


Irrelevant, both to your argument and to the account you posted.

- There might be all sorts of evidence against the existence of immateriality, but this is a little bit of evidence for immateriality, and there are all sorts of similar cases. All I'm asking for agreement on is that the overall prior probability of immateriality be at least .001.


No, you're trying to prove the existence of immaterial selves. Without that your factor of seven billion over infinity doesn't apply to the likelihood of your existence under H, and your 'proof' fails even if you can establish a small amount of uncertainty.

And remember, you also need to establish a hypothesis of immortality which doesn't involve immortal souls, otherwise by your own argument immortality is impossible.
 
As I have explained, it tells us the amount by which the new evidence should increase our prior odds for the hypothesis. Multiply your prior odds* for wizards helping people out of the desert by magic by 850, and let us know how likely you now think that hypothesis is.

which is completely subjective and can change from person to person based on the assumptions you're making. which is why it's a trivial argument. you can show that a toaster helped people out of the desert using the exact same assumptions.
 
However, if a person were not already convinced that there is no such thing as immateriality, he/she would tend to take the Dr's word as to what happened and as to the likelihood of prior knowledge or lucky guesses.

Only a gullible person would do that. And we don't even have the doctor's word, we have someone else's account of the doctor's word.
 
However, if a person were not already convinced that there is no such thing as immateriality, he/she would tend to take the Dr's word as to what happened and as to the likelihood of prior knowledge or lucky guesses.

No.

The whole point of science and scientific inquiry is that we do not take someone's word for it, especially when the implication is profound. It has nothing to do with some imagined bias that you're frantically trying to paste onto your critics. The rigor of scientific inquiry is meant to prune away even honest errors.

Your invitation to set aside reasonable and prudent skepticism and be inordinately credulous to your benefit is declined. Quit begging the question. Quit trying to suggest your critics are too biased to appreciate your genius. You simply have no credible evidence. Understand that having no credible evidence means your claim fails, and that this is the way rational inquiry is supposed to work. Quit laboring under the delusion that you cannot possibly fail.

All I'm asking for agreement on is that the overall prior probability of immateriality be at least .001.

You don't need any rationale to declare your prior to be 0.001 in favor of immortality. You can do that simply because you think that's a nice round number, or because your cat meowed it too you. Ideally it should be based on some quantifiable reason, but as long as you obey certain other constraints, the prior can be arbitrary without loss of rigor.

But of course then you can't pull your something-over-infinity stunt on P(E|H). You wouldn't have a valid Bayesian model if you just guessed at both key factors. If you arbitrarily choose P(H) then P(E|H) needs to be quantitatively self-evident. Even a statistically inferential model has to have at least one foothold in reality in order to have any real-world value. So what it looks like you're trying to do is set up for an arbitrary P(E|H) by saying that P(H) is your foothold in fact. And you're trying to handwave up some putatively scientific rationale that would make your P(H) = 0.999 seem objectively justified instead of a number you just made up.

No.

You tell second- or third-hand ghost stories from a deceitful book that you beg people to accept at face value, even trying to shame them away from the healthy skepticism your book's track record should produce. You demonstrate absolutely no causal relationship between these stories and immortality, since they're near-death experiences and not after-death experiences. And then you beg your critics to give this wild ball of hearsay, speculation, and irresponsible attribution a statistical significance.

You are clearly unable to meet the rigor of a mathematical proof. You admit as much to Loss Leader. Now be a responsible human being and accept the consequences of these admissions.
 
Jabba, you can't prove the existence of immaterial souls using an argument that relies on assuming the existence of immaterial souls.
 
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