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Proof of Immortality, the IV league

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Annnnoid, Fudbucker, sphenisc, jt512, caveman 1917, Nick Terry, and Dani,
- For now, I'll assume that you guys agree with me that OOFLam may be wrong. I'll figure that your sense of the prior probability that OOFLam is wrong is at least .001.
- But, even if the prior probability that OOFLam is wrong is no greater than .001, Bayes would have me winning the formula since the likelihood of my current existence, given OOFLam is so much smaller.

Where's that laughing dog???

It is astonishing that you would even pretend that the last however meany years simply haven't happened. Seriously, Jabba, your arguments have been utterly destroyed here. It's beyond embarrassing at this point.
 
For now, I'll assume...

No, don't put favorable words in the mouths of people who have given up debating against or with you, for the purposes of pretending you've established a vital premise to your argument. Those who are still here and still debating you still disagree. Your unwillingness to address that disagreement doesn't suddenly make you brilliant.

Bayes would have me winning the formula since the likelihood of my current existence, given OOFLam is so much smaller.

No.

You simply invent your prior out of thin air. Then you turn around and invent your likelihoods out of thin air. jt512 already told you why that was wrong. So no, Bayes does not guarantee your proof. You have already been told in what exact way you are misusing Bayes, just as you have already been told in what exact ways your proffered evidence is non-probative. Your unwillingness to address those explanations on their merits does not suddenly make you brilliant.

No you can choose p = 0.001 as your prior, and without any rationale if you so choose. We already told you that. In fact, we told you that while you were in the midst of blabbering about near-death experience anecdotes as evidence and whining about no one accepting them as scientifically probative evidence for life after death. You spent weeks arguing a rationale that would have been helpful, but is not strictly required. But what you cannot do thereafter is simply pick all your numbers out of thin air and pretend that running them through any formula somehow produces useful information, much less a mathematically rigorous proof.

If you want to pluck P(H) out of thin air, you can do that. But having done so, you may not also pluck P(E|H) out of thin air as you have done. P(E|H) must be essentially self-evidently true under that circumstance. And you know that yours is not, because it has been debated with you several times over the past four years. Not that you've paid any attention to that debate, but it's clear there is no agreement that P(E|H) must necessarily be as close to zero as one can get, whether you want to acknowledge that fact or not. Ignoring rational disputation of your argument does not suddenly make you brilliant.

And yes, it's insulting and demeaning to your critics for you to simply (once again) up and declare victory and ignore the debate that you've kept going without really participating in. It's further insulting and deaming for you to tell the critics who are engaging you that you have no time to address their ongoing comments while simultaneously begging and pleading with people who are no longer active in debating you to pay attention to you. We could ask for no better evidence to convince us that you have no interest in actual debate and are simply currying favor.

Shame on you, Jabba. At the risk of violating the member agreement, I urge you to quit behaving like a spoiled child and instead actually hold a debate.
 
Annnnoid, Fudbucker, sphenisc, jt512, caveman 1917, Nick Terry, and Dani,
- For now, I'll assume that you guys agree with me that OOFLam may be wrong. I'll figure that your sense of the prior probability that OOFLam is wrong is at least .001.
- But, even if the prior probability that OOFLam is wrong is no greater than .001, Bayes would have me winning the formula since the likelihood of my current existence, given OOFLam is so much smaller.

Translation: 5 people haven't answered me in the last 3 hours, so therefore I have scientifically proven that I am immortal.

Even for you, Jabba, this is a bizarre line of reasoning.
 
LL,
- How about the following case?

CASE 3.1. Observing an Amputation Jean-Jacques Charbonier, a French anesthetist-ICU doctor at the Capio Clinique Saint-Jean Languedoc in Toulouse, France, became known for his work in the area of NDEs and life after death. In the documentary Untimely Departure: Near-Death Experience (a translation of the French-language documentary Faux Départ— Enquète sur les EMI/ NDE), he mentioned a relevant case of a patient of his: I operated on a woman under general anesthetic. And when she woke up, she described her operation as if she had been on the ceiling. Not only that, she also described the operation that took place in the next theater, the amputation of a leg. She saw the leg; she saw them put the leg in a yellow bag. She couldn’t possibly have invented that and she described it as soon as she woke up. I checked afterwards and the operation had indeed taken place in the next theater. A leg had been amputated at the very same time that she was under anesthetic, and thus totally disconnected from the world. SOURCE Barkallah, S. (Producer & Director). (2015). Untimely departure [motion picture, English translation]. Berre l’Etang, France: S17. TV 2015. Retrieved from https:// ​ www.s17. tv/ ​ documentaires/ ​ faux-depart.html

Rivas, Titus; Dirven,Anny; Smit,Rudolf. The Self Does Not Die: Verified Paranormal Phenomena from Near-Death Experiences (pp. 58-59). International Association for Near-Death Studies. Kindle Edition.

This is not a citation, this is hearsay from someone who got it second hand, this would not even pass muster in a grade school paper
 
Annnnoid, Fudbucker, sphenisc, jt512, caveman 1917, Nick Terry, and Dani,
- For now, I'll assume that you guys agree with me that OOFLam may be wrong. I'll figure that your sense of the prior probability that OOFLam is wrong is at least .001.
- But, even if the prior probability that OOFLam is wrong is no greater than .001, Bayes would have me winning the formula since the likelihood of my current existence, given OOFLam is so much smaller.

My Dear Mr. Savage:

For now, given your silence, I will assume that you are surrendering completely, and admitting that NOTHING, no single piece of actual fact, supports the mere existence of a "soul", much less its "immortality".

I am glad to have gotten that cleared up--thank you for your revealing non-response.

i remain translucently yours, & ct.
 
Annnnoid, Fudbucker, sphenisc, jt512, caveman 1917, Nick Terry, and Dani,
- Is it possible that OOFLam is wrong?
- If none of you guys answer me, I will assume that your answers are, "Yes."



Annnoid has been suspended until after Christmas.

Nick Terry last posted on November 20, and before that on October 6. He has never posted in this thread and made only 1 post in the "Anecdotes" thread. He mostly limits himself to discussions of the Holocaust.

Dani also only posted once in the "Anecdotes" thread and appears never to have posted in this thread.

caveman1917 likewise made a couple of posts in the "Anecdotes" thread, all eight days ago. He has never posted in this thread, last posting in "Immortality III" on September 22. He tends to limit himself to the right wing argument in US politics threads.

sphenisc posted less than ten times in the "Anecdotes" thread. He has never posted in this thread or Immortality III.

Fudbucker has posted in this thread but he hasn't even been online since November 27. He hasn't seen your plea.


Do you honestly believe we all live in one big house? Merely reciting a person's name is not a magic spell that summons them. If you'd like to send some of them PMs that they might actually see go ahead.

However, proceed here comfortable in the knowledge that you have moved on to some new point without ever completely exploring the point you and I started with. Your theories of debate include one and only one interlocutor discussing one sub-sub-sub issue at a time. By abandoning your conversation with me (and simply pretending that someone somewhere agrees with you) you are behaving in bad faith even by your own standards.

It's just like how Elle thought she could be a good student just be being cute and nice when, instead, she needed to learn how to do hard work in the musical version of Legally Blonde.
 
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I'm pretty happy with just assuming under H1 that the God we're talking about isn't a slacker, and so the probability that the explorer lives under H1 is 1.

and that's where we differ! for p(live|God)=1, you not only have to assume God exists, but that He told that person where to find the water. Even assuming God exists, I'm pretty sure anyone lost in the desert about to die will most likely call on God to help (atheist or not) like in the old saying "there're are no atheists before a calculus exam." God obviously doesn't help all of them, and there's no way to distinguish the ones He helps from random chance. I'm looking for empirical evidence. nonetheless...


That said, the problem you've brought up is a standard problem in Bayesian inference, namely, that we may have one or more parameters in our models whose values we do not know. The correct way (both theoretically and practically) to deal with this situation is to represent our state of knowledge about the parameter by using a probability distribution.
agreed

In the current problem, we "know" that the probability that an explorer finds water randomly on his own is 0.02.

I'm fine with that. it would obviously depend on which desert we're talking about (some are more harsh than others), but I'm sure we could find one where a 2% probability of randomly finding water is reasonable (keep in mind the explorers survival experience would offset some of the 'randomness' of his finding water. think Bear Grylls, etc. still I'm fine with your approach so far).

Even if we don't know how much help God would be, it seems reasonable to assume that with God's help the explorer doesn't do any worse than random chance. So under the God hypothesis (H1), it seems reasonable to say that the probability p of finding water is in the interval [.2, 1].
here we disagree. I would posit that there's no difference between having God's help and finding water randomly as there is no evidence that would distinguish God's help from randomly finding water.

you're saying that p ~ uniform[.02, 1] which implies a mean of 1.02/2 = 0.51, or pretty much a coin flip. Heads God helped you tails He didn't. I find this way too high for something that has never been shown to happen. think of it this way, if heads is God and tails random chance and you flipped this coin an infinite number of times and it always landed on it's edge would you think this coin had close to a 51% prob of landing on heads? I would think this coin was weighted to only land on it's edge (i.e., not 50/50). since there is no proof for the God hypothesis, this is the scenario that makes most sense (at least to me). but to counter my opinion, we would need empirical evidence. otherwise, why do we run experiments at all? we could just conclude whether a drug works base on our own subjective judgment, and I'm sure ours will differ from, say, that of a drug company's.

I've argued with frequentists about this sort of thing for years. their major criticism of Bayes is it's subjectivity, so it's always been important to me that model assumptions have empirical evidence to back them up. otherwise, we just have opinion. so although it seems reasonable to you to assign a probability of finding water assuming God is in the interval [.2,1] (on average 51%), this seems extremely unreasonable to me, and assuming that it's this high 'games' the result in favor of the God hypothesis, as the minimum of your interval is equal to random chance. no where to go but up. my frequentist friends would flip (no pun intended).

I'm perfectly willing to say this is an unanswerable question. but to make it answerable, we would need to have objective empirical evidence, like the way I calculated randomly finding water as the (#live/Total number lost). I can't use my (or your) subjective judgment. all the reviewer has to say is 'how did you come up with that?" and we're stuck.

*note that I am totally fine with the rest of your formulation, although I may use a dirichilet prior to keep things conjugate, you know, avoid nasty looking posterior distributions requiring MCMC methods or having to integrate. but still, I won't quibble about this. reasonable and nicely done.


[/QUOTE]
 
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Annnoid has been suspended until after Christmas.

Nick Terry last posted on November 20, and before that on October 6. He has never posted in this thread and made only 1 post in the "Anecdotes" thread. He mostly limits himself to discussions of the Holocaust.

Dani also only posted once in the "Anecdotes" thread and appears never to have posted in this thread.

caveman1917 likewise made a couple of posts in the "Anecdotes" thread, all eight days ago. He has never posted in this thread, last posting in "Immortality III" on September 22. He tends to limit himself to the right wing argument in US politics threads.

sphenisc posted less than ten times in the "Anecdotes" thread. He has never posted in this thread or Immortality III.

Fudbucker has posted in this thread but he hasn't even been online since November 27. He hasn't seen your plea.


Do you honestly believe we all live in one big house? Merely reciting a person's name is not a magic spell that summons them. If you'd like to send some of them PMs that they might actually see go ahead.

However, proceed here comfortable in the knowledge that you have moved on to some new point without ever completely exploring the point you and I started with. Your theories of debate include one and only one interlocutor discussing one sub-sub-sub issue at a time. By abandoning your conversation with me (and simply pretending that someone somewhere agrees with you) you are behaving in bad faith even by your own standards.

It's just like how Elle thought she could be a good student just be being cute and nice when, instead, she needed to learn how to do hard work in the musical version of Legally Blonde.
LL,
- Thanks.
- I don't guess you could encourage jt to say something?
- May I send personal messages to the others asking them to stop by?
 
LL,
- Thanks.
- I don't guess you could encourage jt to say something?
- May I send personal messages to the others asking them to stop by?

Why?

You have, remember, admitted (by your silence to me) that there is no evidence of a "soul", much less of its "immortality"...

You did, by your own rules.

[/thread]
 
LL,
- Thanks.
- I don't guess you could encourage jt to say something?
- May I send personal messages to the others asking them to stop by?

I didn't think you could abase your position any further than you did this morning, but here you go - sinking lower still.
 
- But, even if the prior probability that OOFLam is wrong is no greater than .001, Bayes would have me winning the formula since the likelihood of my current existence, given OOFLam is so much smaller.


The only way you managed to make your existence impossible under "OOFLam" was by shoehorning your factor of seven billion over infinity into your formula. It does not belong there if H is a hypothesis in which consciousness is the result of brain processes. In order to put it there, you need to prove that immaterial souls exist; putting it there without doing so is begging the question, because it assumes the conclusion that you want (that immortal souls exist) in your premises.

The likelihood of your existence under a hypothesis in which consciousness is the result of brain processes is the same as the likelihood of the existence of your body; the likelihood of your existence under a hypothesis in which you have a body and an independently existing soul it equal to the likelihood of your body's existence multiplied by the likelihood of your soul's existence multiplied by the likelihood of your soul and your body intersecting.

Your existence under your preferred hypothesis cannot possibly be more likely than your existence under the hypothesis you wish to reject. If we accept your assertion that there are an infinite number of potential souls then your existence is impossible under your preferred hypothesis.

By your own argument, you have essentially proved mortality.
 
I don't guess you could encourage jt to say something?

Why on earth do you think a moderator should be charged with influencing other people to engage in debate on your terms? Do you really think their job is to enforce your foisted ground rules? This is outrageous coming from someone who willfully ignores the vast majority of comment on his posts. Are you really that deluded and egotistical, or is this just another part of your stage act, like Befuddled Old Man? What would you think if I petitioned the moderators to compel you to answer, to my satisfaction, the dozens and dozens of my posts that you have purposely ignored? Would you consider that fair moderation?

No one is going to grant you special consideration simply because you're visibly desperate. If you cannot attract allies to your beliefs without others' influence, consider the lesson that should be teaching you about the objective validity of your beliefs. If you can't withstand criticism of your beliefs without relying upon external crutches, then consider the lesson that should be teaching you about the comparative strength of your argument and your personal ability to mount it.

In short, given your behavior today and the existential crisis to which you admitted several months ago, I see no evidence that you have considered, even hypothetically, the notion that you might be wrong. You are not emotionally or intellectually prepared to debate this matter, and you owe this forum an explanation for why, under the evident circumstances, any rational person would attempt to engage you on the merits of your argument.
 
If you cannot attract allies to your beliefs without others' influence, consider the lesson that should be teaching you about the objective validity of your beliefs. If you can't withstand criticism of your beliefs without relying upon external crutches, then consider the lesson that should be teaching you about the comparative strength of your argument and your personal ability to mount it.

Quoted for truth.
 
The only way you managed to make your existence impossible under "OOFLam" was by shoehorning your factor of seven billion over infinity into your formula. It does not belong there if H is a hypothesis in which consciousness is the result of brain processes. In order to put it there, you need to prove that immaterial souls exist; putting it there without doing so is begging the question, because it assumes the conclusion that you want (that immortal souls exist) in your premises.

The likelihood of your existence under a hypothesis in which consciousness is the result of brain processes is the same as the likelihood of the existence of your body; the likelihood of your existence under a hypothesis in which you have a body and an independently existing soul it equal to the likelihood of your body's existence multiplied by the likelihood of your soul's existence multiplied by the likelihood of your soul and your body intersecting.

Your existence under your preferred hypothesis cannot possibly be more likely than your existence under the hypothesis you wish to reject. If we accept your assertion that there are an infinite number of potential souls then your existence is impossible under your preferred hypothesis.

By your own argument, you have essentially proved mortality.
Mojo,
- The 7 billion doesn't decrease the likelihood of my existence given OOFLam. It would increase my likelihood of existence if it wasn't being divided by infinity
 
Mojo,
- The 7 billion doesn't decrease the likelihood of my existence given OOFLam. It would increase my likelihood of existence if it wasn't being divided by infinity

Your continued silence in response to my questions and sallies simply underscores the fact that you agree that there is no evidence at all of the existence of the "soul", much less of its "immortality" (by your own rules).
 
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