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Proof of Immortality, the IV league

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You have yet to identify where I made this claim. The bit you quoted does not include me making any such claim.

So, when I asked you how in scientific research you'd mitigate the possibility of people lying to you and you replied that "anecdotes are collected under an assumption of integrity. A question is asked…and an honest answer is provided.", what did you mean, exactly?

If it is an answer to the question posed, then it is the claim that you are denying it is. If it's not an answer to the question posed, which you are now seemingly claiming that it's not, then could you please answer the question?

Why on earth should I waste my time going to all this trouble? Just explain what your point is. Otherwise don’t expect me to bother.

Because you're interested in an honest conversation? Because you're trying to express your ideas clearly?

Of course, you're free to just make vague statements and pretend like that's the same thing as giving clear, honest answers if you like. But since it's a simple question which is core to the conversation we're having, I can't imagine why you wouldn't answer it fully if you are at all interested in honest communication.

As it is, it seems to me that your statement is a tacit admission that the anecdote itself has no truth value and that instead it's the corroborating evidence which speaks to the hypothesis. Since that's the opposite of what you're arguing, I can only assume that that's not what you mean to say and that you'd take the opportunity to clarify your statement and explain how it supports your argument rather than completely contradicting it. But, as I say, it's entirely up to you.
 
Thank you for putting my name in red. I'd been skimming through your posts so quickly that I would otherwise have missed it.


Well, that is amazing. I've neve seen such a demonstration of telepathy. Your brother went to law school and somehow you learned the rules of evidence.

Congratulations on whatever it is you wrote.

Thank you for putting my name in red


I didn’t really expect you to answer since doing so would, once again, demonstrate how worthless your entire argument is.

But no worries...it should be dead easy to find an actual credible lawyer who doesn't mind attaching their name to a legitimate answer to what is a very elementary question. In fact, I have no doubt that any lawyer would find it amusing that such a question would even be asked ...given that the answers are so blindingly obvious!

So, when I asked you how in scientific research you'd mitigate the possibility of people lying to you and you replied that "anecdotes are collected under an assumption of integrity. A question is asked…and an honest answer is provided.", what did you mean, exactly?

If it is an answer to the question posed, then it is the claim that you are denying it is. If it's not an answer to the question posed, which you are now seemingly claiming that it's not, then could you please answer the question?


You asked this:

Would you consider it scientifically valid to assume that people telling anecdotes are not lying? Does such an assumption always lead to an accurate understanding of the truth?


..to which I answered: “anecdotes are collected under an assumption of integrity, honesty…etc.”

...which you somehow interpreted as this:

Then, despite declaring the first question "ridiculous", you have actually answered it - namely, you would consider it scientifically valid to simply assume that all anecdotes are true.


…and I asked where I have ever made such a claim?

“anecdotes are collected under an assumption of integrity, honesty…etc.”

…became:

“ All anecdotes are assumed to be true.”

Quite obviously (to most people anyway)…the first statement has a very different meaning than the second statement. Only a complete idiot would conclude that every anecdote ever made is both accurate and authentic….which probably explains why I never made such a claim!

Because you're interested in an honest conversation? Because you're trying to express your ideas clearly?


…and all of that can be accomplished without wasting a whole pile of time that I don’t have on something that can be accomplished much more easily if you would simply explain your point!

Of course, you're free to just make vague statements and pretend like that's the same thing as giving clear, honest answers if you like. But since it's a simple question which is core to the conversation we're having,


…and what is that ‘simple question’…???

I can't imagine why you wouldn't answer it fully if you are at all interested in honest communication.


…well…produce the question and I’ll answer it ‘fully.’

As it is, it seems to me that your statement is a tacit admission that the anecdote itself has no truth value and that instead it's the corroborating evidence which speaks to the hypothesis.


…and this conclusion has already been demonstrated to be blatantly flawed on every possible level and in every possible way.

Since that's the opposite of what you're arguing, I can only assume that that's not what you mean to say and that you'd take the opportunity to clarify your statement and explain how it supports your argument rather than completely contradicting it. But, as I say, it's entirely up to you.


I believe I asked you the following question (…if not, I’m asking it now):

…assuming (even if just for the sake of argument), that your posts are anecdotes…(which is secondary issue but might as well throw it in just to make things interesting since your post explicitly qualifies as an unverified report…which is Nonapreil’s definition of ‘anecdote’)(…it is ‘unverified' is it not?...and it is a ‘report’ is it not?...and combining the two words we get ‘unverified report’…which [holy smoking cheesecakes Batman] is exactly the definition that Nonpareil identified with anecdote)…

Are…or are not…your posts evidence of what you were thinking, feeling, and / or experiencing when you wrote them.

Not one of you has answered this question so far. Nonpareil has run away from it. Loss Leader has run away from it. Everyone else pretends it's not there. It's got Hokulele so scared that she won't even come back to the thread any more.

...give it a try.
 
It's not often that an author's name is such a big clue to the nature of his book.


...and I forgot you Pixel42. You keep ignoring this question as well. Here's a reminder:

Are...or are not...your posts evidence of what you were thinking, feeling, and / or experiencing when you wrote them?

I think I'll start keeping a running total.

Number of times skeptics run away from this simple question: ...about 30 so far.

Number of times skeptics have answered this simple question: zero

Anyone reading this thread would be entirely forgiven for coming to the conclusion that 'skeptics' must be somehow terrified of this simple question. Can't begin to imagine why that could be!
 
You asked this:

"Would you consider it scientifically valid to assume that people telling anecdotes are not lying?" to which the answer was "anecdotes are collected under an assumption of integrity, honesty…etc.". How is that anything other than saying that you do consider it scientifically valid to assume that anecdotes are true? It's literally answering the question of whether or not you consider it scientifically valid to assume that anecdotes are told honestly by saying that it's assumed that anecdotes are told honestly.

If it means something else, please explain clearly exactly what you do mean by it.

…and what is that ‘simple question’…???

What factors you believe are taken into consideration alongside the anecdotes themselves. What the "whole pile of other things" actually is. How the differences in hypotheses and anecdotes affect this pile.

Because, again, it comes across as if you're changing your position from saying that the anecdotes themselves support the hypotheses and instead saying that it's corroborative evidence which do.

I believe I asked you the following question (…if not, I’m asking it now):

…assuming (even if just for the sake of argument), that your posts are anecdotes…(which is secondary issue but might as well throw it in just to make things interesting since your post explicitly qualifies as an unverified report…which is Nonapreil’s definition of ‘anecdote’)(…it is ‘unverified' is it not?...and it is a ‘report’ is it not?...and combining the two words we get ‘unverified report’…which [holy smoking cheesecakes Batman] is exactly the definition that Nonpareil identified with anecdote)…

Are…or are not…your posts evidence of what you were thinking, feeling, and / or experiencing when you wrote them.

I don't know who it was who asked this question, but I've already answered it once in this thread. The answer is that they might be. They might not be. You could work this out for yourself by asking yourself whether or not I love my wife. And if for some reason you think I don't have a wife, then you should ask yourself on what evidence you're basing that conclusion.

It's probably also worth considering whether or not this thread is a scientific experiment, and whether a scientific hypothesis is being tested within it.
 
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LL,
- An NDE anecdote claims an event. If the other involved witness(es) disavow the claimed event, the claimed event is effectively falsified.

That has nothing to do with anything...
LL,

- I'll try to be more clear.

- So as to really understand what you mean by "falsifiable evidence," I was providing an example of what I thought it to be.
- In my example, the subject claimed that something occurred while he was being resuscitated -- i.e., his wife was in the waiting room wearing red. That would certainly be a falsifiable anecdote.
- I guess that it isn't what you mean by falsifiable evidence?
 
LL,

- I'll try to be more clear.

- So as to really understand what you mean by "falsifiable evidence," I was providing an example of what I thought it to be.
- In my example, the subject claimed that something occurred while he was being resuscitated -- i.e., his wife was in the waiting room wearing red. That would certainly be a falsifiable anecdote.
- I guess that it isn't what you mean by falsifiable evidence?


He could be right or wrong about his wife being in the waiting room wearing red, but this is meaningless without context. If he's right it could just be a lucky guess.* Because of the way these anecdotes are collected there is no way of knowing.


*If I was undergoing surgery it would be a pretty good bet that Mrs Mojo would be in the waiting room, and I would probably have a pretty good idea of what she was wearing because I would have seen her beforehand.
 
I think Jabba is now conflating "claim" with "evidence".
This, though to be fair, I think it was Loss Leader who set it up with a typo. I'm not going back through the thread, but LL typed "falsifiable evidence" when he obviously meant "falsifiable claim." Jabba has predictably latched on to this as if it means something in order to use it as another rabbit-hole tangent.
 
annnnoid said:
--snip--
They looked at the NDE evidence (which is all-but exclusively anecdotal) and came to the conclusion that the evidence was substantial enough to develop not just general physiological studies…but specifically NDE-related physiological AND cognitive studies.

Precisely. They developed a hypothesis from the anecdotes; they did not use the anecdotes to confirm the hypothesis. That's what I said; it is not what you said. Your summary of your own links indicated that you had done nothing more than skim the abstracts and then misrepresented them. Whether the misrepresentation was intentional or accidental, I do not know, but it is consistent with your posts throughout this entire discussion.

You have no credibility in this regard, particularly now that you try to spin it in alternating ways, i.e., sometimes it still says what you erroneously claim it said and sometimes it doesn't but you meant it that way all along.

annnnoid said:
You just finished agreeing that “if something raises the probability of something from 1% to 1.01% then it is by definition evidence.”
Yes, I did, and I stand by it.


annnnoid said:
The quality and content of virtually any anecdote can, all by itself, describe legitimate avenues of neural (as well as cognitive) speculation (hypothesis) far beyond a .01% degree of accuracy (and this is trivially easy to demonstrate)…so this conclusion is simply false.
If it did, it would be evidence. You are assuming I agree that they do.


annnnoid said:
…and since you have already agreed that “if something raises (changes) the probability of something from 1% to 1.01% then it is by definition evidence.”…you have essentially argued that anecdotal evidence, of ANY kind, IS valid evidence.
Not remotely. Your attempts to twist my words do not go unnoticed, and I do not accept them.

I said "if." You are saying "does." They are not the same.


annnnoid said:
Evidence is whatever generates a conclusion.
This is too restrictive. Evidence is whatever supports a conclusion (including the conclusion that the previous conclusion was wrong); it need not be absolute.

Anecdotes do not do this -- not in the way you are attempting to make it seem they do.
 
Neither Garrette nor JayUtah is remotely ignorant enough to make any such claims.
Thank you for the vote of confidence, but I did make that claim (that when anecdotes do have some evidentiary value it is because they are not taken in a vacuum; there is surrounding evidence that usually goes unvoiced). I will not attempt to speak for JayUtah in that regard.


This gets to my observation -- unvoiced until now -- that this entire anecdotes-are-evidence train as voiced by you and Jabba is simply another version of the "science is neither perfect nor perfectly objective, and all imperfections are equal, therefore I can use my favored nonsense in the same way you guys use real evidence" schtick.
 
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My God the amount of hair splits and semantic nitpicks here is pathetic.

It's simple. At it's more core, base level what is being argued are intellectual and argumentative standards.

When you make claim, how much do you have to pack it up with?

Arguing that anecdotes are evidence is essentially arguing that you get to make claims without backing them up because anecdotes are pretty much by definition non-verifiable, they are the classic "friend of a friend" type stories that are too vague or detached to be verified.
 
My God the amount of hair splits and semantic nitpicks here is pathetic.

It's simple. At it's more core, base level what is being argued are intellectual and argumentative standards.

When you make claim, how much do you have to pack it up with?

Arguing that anecdotes are evidence is essentially arguing that you get to make claims without backing them up because anecdotes are pretty much by definition non-verifiable, they are the classic "friend of a friend" type stories that are too vague or detached to be verified.


Exactly. The whole "all posts are anecdotes" claim is equivalent to the argument "If you call a tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have?"

Not every single piece of communication is an anecdote. For example.

1) "This is a claim." is a claim.
2) "Is this a claim?" is a question.
3) "Ha!" is an exclamation.
4) "!@(!&$&@(#*!/?>.*^" is a random string of punctuation.
5) www.wrh.noaa.gov/sto/ is a link.
6) "Doo be doo be doo wah wah" is scat singing.
7) "My sister-in-law told me that she saw Aunt Rita at Sav-Mart buying 3 cases of Monster Energy drink." is an anecdote.
8) "Mountains come out of the sky and they stand there..." is a sample of Yes lyrics.
 
I do not think those words mean what you think they mean.

yes, still reduced to childish quips and semantics. well, makes sense since you have nothing else. expecting you may actually try and make an argument was my mistake. i'm sure you'll come back with something akin to 'not your only mistake!" BWAAAAA!

well, i'll leave you to your world of not having to deal with your version of, uh, 'statistics' being challenged. a safe and comfy place where unevidenced claims rule, as in that golden age of enlightenment you mentioned, the stone-age. yes, zinc cures colds and big foot exists. enjoy.
 
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