Proof of Immortality, the IV league

[John Jones]

Why all the vituperation?

 

[JayUtah]

You are all basically arguing…that what you are saying / writing / expressing (here, there, anywhere) has no meaning and can be ignored...

No, that isn't the argument. The argument isn't, and has never been, that anecdotal evidence has no meaning. The argument is that it doesn't have the mean fringe theorists desperately want it to have.

Since you can't seem to address that, and since your bluff and bluster isn't working, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

 

[John Jones]

I am busy now so…fortunately for me…I don’t have much time to waste on this stupid thread.

….

Why all the vituperation?

 

[Belz...]

Why all the vituperation?

Adjudicate!

 

[Jabba]

No, Jabba. It doesn't work like that. I have no evidence that what you call OOFLam isn't true. The only evidence that has been presented is that cognition is a process of a functioning brain, and it stops when the brain does.

In order for me to doubt that, I'd need some evidence that contradicts it. You claim there's an immortal soul. You can't define its characteristics and you can't show a properly controlled study that found it. You can't show that any non-physical perception has ever taken place (though this would be far from evidence of an immortal soul).

So, I have no reason to assign a truth value of anything but 1. Does that mean I am closed to reevaluating this in light of new evidence? It does not. But being willing to be proven wrong is not the same as doubting that one is right.

Please stop begging for some fraction of a percent from some fraction of readers. Just show falsifiable evidence that should cause us to doubt OOFLam.

If you have no such evidence, admit that you have a belief that, while comforting to you, cannot be logically derived for others.

It's no shame. Billions of people have trillions of unevidenced beliefs and they get on fine.

LL,

- I'll plan on finishing The Self that does not Die before responding here. I'll then provide some of the studies, or anecdotes, from the book that seem the most impressive to me. The Kindle version of the book costs only $10...
- There are all sorts of other books, and journal articles re NDEs written from the believer perspective. Obviously, I would encourage you to sample some of those.

- Then, there is much more written by believers about paranormal claims in general. I would encourage you to sample some of those also.

- Obviously, I have read much more from the pro side (starting back in 1960) than I have from the con side; so, I assume you have done the opposite...
- Do you have any books or articles that effectively undermine claims of extrasensory veridical perception you can recommend?

- Per usual, IBB.

 

[godless dave]

Jabba, do you think anecdotes such as the ones in the book Abduction: Human Encounters with Aliens can increase or decrease the prior probabilities of scientific hypotheses about extra terrestrial life?

 

[Jabba]

- OOOPs, wrong thread...

 

[Jabba]

Jabba, do you think anecdotes such as the ones in the book Abduction: Human Encounters with Aliens can increase or decrease the prior probabilities of scientific hypotheses about extra terrestrial life?

Dave,
- I haven't read the book, but I'd sure be surprised if there is no extra terrestrial life...

 

[godless dave]

Dave,
- I haven't read the book, but I'd sure be surprised if there is no extra terrestrial life...

But do you think a book of people's accounts of being abducted by aliens constitutes evidence that aliens have visited the earth and abducted people?

 

[Belz...]

Dave,
- I haven't read the book, but I'd sure be surprised if there is no extra terrestrial life...

There's a difference between life existing somewhere else and aliens visiting us.

 

[theprestige]

LL,

- I'll plan on finishing The Self that does not Die before responding here. I'll then provide some of the studies, or anecdotes, from the book that seem the most impressive to me. The Kindle version of the book costs only $10...
- There are all sorts of other books, and journal articles re NDEs written from the believer perspective. Obviously, I would encourage you to sample some of those.

- Then, there is much more written by believers about paranormal claims in general. I would encourage you to sample some of those also.

- Obviously, I have read much more from the pro side (starting back in 1960) than I have from the con side; so, I assume you have done the opposite...
- Do you have any books or articles that effectively undermine claims of extrasensory veridical perception you can recommend?

- Per usual, IBB.

Outstanding. First you send people out to find the evidence you owe them. Then you demand they make a counter argument they do not owe you.

 

[JayUtah]

seem the most impressive to me.

That is not the criteria your critics have asked you to apply. Further, you have not established any causal connection between NDEs and your claims of an immortal soul. You are appealing to NDEs because you believe that they support something vaguely supernatural.

Do you have any books or articles that effectively undermine claims of extrasensory veridical perception you can recommend?

Do not shift the burden of proof. You are here to prove mathematically the existence of an immortal soul. Making everyone wait for you to tell fluffy stories from a book accomplishes nothing along those lines. You have several outstanding questions you should be answering.

 

[JayUtah]

Dave,
- I haven't read the book, but I'd sure be surprised if there is no extra terrestrial life...

That was not the question. Do you consider the anecdotes in that book evidence that aliens are visiting Earth and abducting earthlings?

 

[Nonpareil]

Anecdotes / personal accounts / self report…whatever you want to call them…BY DEFINITION…have evidential relevance.

Not unless-

Every single one of you who posts on this forum implicitly subscribes to this FACT (the [at the very least] potential evidential legitimacy [‘truth’…in some way shape or form] of the content of anecdotes / personal accounts / self-report / self-expression). You expect the content of your posts to convey meaning that is relevant to this discussion. The content of your posts describes what you are thinking / feeling. It is evidence…presumably credible, legitimate, relevant evidence of what you are thinking / feeling.

-you want to make the trivial and irrelevant point that anecdotes are evidence of their own existence, natch.

And you are, again, resorting to baseless equivocation when your fallacious reasoning is pointed out. This time, it's between "attempting to use an anecdote as evidence" and "all communication" rather than "anecdote" and "verified evidence", but still*. The same non-argument as always.

And why are all of you sooooooooo desperate to confirm this dumb argument????... because otherwise you have to acknowledge that NDE’s OBE’s (whatever etc. etc. etc.) have some manner of legitimacy.

Well, yes. Blithering insanity is a side-effect of discarding reason. We've been over this ad nauseam as well.

This entire thread has just been nothing but re-re-re-re-re-regurgitations of the same pre-refuted nonsense. I'd ask if there was going to be any new material forthcoming in the near future, but we all know the answer to that.

*: One could also raise the point of any single post not actually being evidence that the poster is trying to communicate the ideas explicitly contained in it; sarcasm and Poe's Law both exist, among other factors. But it's rather unnecessary, since, as already stated, the intricacies of communication are not really the matter in hand.

 

[Loss Leader]

I'll then provide some of the studies, or anecdotes, from the book that seem the most impressive to me.

Jabba,

Each successive post of yours makes me sadder and sadder. After being shot down about "anecdotes" but learning about "case studies," you try to conflate and confuse the two concepts. You make synonyms out of "anecdotes" and "studies."

They are not the same. Case studies are conducted by trained professionals (usually doctors). They adhere to a standard format. They attempt to include as much objective information as possible (blood gasses, x-rays, ekg's, et cet.). They are collated by professionals who consider all studies, not just the ones they like. And case studies are a poor excuse for controlled trials. When possible, such case studies may lead to further testing. Sometimes (most usually for moral reasons) double-blind testing cannot be done.

Is this how the anecdotes in your book were curated? Were these stories of OBE's written up in a standard format? Was objective information colected. Were all people included in the studied group? Is there any reason not to conduct a proper, falsifiable test? I have had blood flow to my brain ended. I never had an NDE or OBE. Why isn't my anecdote included? Is it because it doesn't support whatever the author wishes were true?

- There are all sorts of other books, and journal articles re NDEs written from the believer perspective. Obviously, I would encourage you to sample some of those.

Why? Are any of them properly controlled, falsifiable studies? If not, then they're just adding zero weight to the zero evidence you've amassed so far.

I encourage you to read Salt by Mark Kurlansky. It doesn't provide any more evidence of anything we're talking about than your cherry-picked anecdotes. But it has the distinction of at least being a good book.

- Then, there is much more written by believers about paranormal claims in general. I would encourage you to sample some of those also.

One again, why? Unless they include repeatable, falsifiable tests, they have no value. I guess we could burn them for warmth.

- Do you have any books or articles that effectively undermine claims of extrasensory veridical perception you can recommend?

No, Jabba. Just ... No.

This is your claim. This is your burden. We are not going to compare the gross weight of your books to the gross weight of mine. Reality is not a popularity contest. Immateriality is either true or it isn't. You claim it's true so you must show repeatable, falsifiable evidence of such.

In fact, there are many properly controlled studies that attempted to examine psychic phenomena and they all failed to produce evidence. You can look them up on your own. I will not be drawn into an argument about whose books are better. That's not how a logical argument works.

Please do not come back with some bibliography of nonsense. Don't come back with some story you cherry picked from some book of cherry picked anecdotes. Come back with repeatable, falsifiable evidence of immateriality.

- OR -

Come back and say that you have embraced an unevidenced belief because it brings you comfort.

 

[Jabba]

I am busy now so…fortunately for me…I don’t have much time to waste on this stupid thread.

…but I have to say…the level of argument by those disputing my position is almost embarrassing. Actually …correction…it IS embarrassing.

Anecdotes / personal accounts / self report…whatever you want to call them…BY DEFINITION…have evidential relevance. For quite a number of reasons, but I’ll confine myself to what should by now be blindingly obvious to anyone with even a fraction of a brain.

Every single one of you who posts on this forum implicitly subscribes to this FACT (the [at the very least] potential evidential legitimacy [‘truth’…in some way shape or form] of the content of anecdotes / personal accounts / self-report / self-expression). You expect the content of your posts to convey meaning that is relevant to this discussion. The content of your posts describes what you are thinking / feeling. It is evidence…presumably credible, legitimate, relevant evidence of what you are thinking / feeling.

…and if it is not (evidence) …as just about all of you keep arguing (personal accounts / self-report / anecdotes have NO evidentiary legitimacy)…WHY ON EARTH ARE YOU MAKING THESE POSTS !?!?!?!?

You are all basically arguing…that what you are saying / writing / expressing (here, there, anywhere) has no meaning and can be ignored not only by everyone else (because it is evidence of nothing) but also by you who are expressing it. A first-week psychology undergrad would immediately indentify this as a recipe for insanity (…”what I am writing / saying right now has no meaning…”)!

And why are all of you sooooooooo desperate to confirm this dumb argument????... because otherwise you have to acknowledge that NDE’s OBE’s (whatever etc. etc. etc.) have some manner of legitimacy. And you’d rather stick poison darts in your eyes and proclaim your own insanity than do that (and …congratulations…you are all succeeding!).

…that none of you are capable of recognizing the inherent idiocy of your own argument is…like I said…embarrassing, but I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised.

- I'm not sure where I should respond to this, but since annnnoid placed it in the immortality thread, this is where I'll respond...

annnnoid,
- Thanks for your efforts. Hopefully, you'll have time to interject here and there...

 

[Jabba]

But do you think a book of people's accounts of being abducted by aliens constitutes evidence that aliens have visited the earth and abducted people?

Dave,
- It could. Wormholes?

 

[Nonpareil]

It could.

No, it couldn't.

Wormholes?

Wizards.

 

[Belz...]

- It could.

Do you believe everything that everyone reports? That's a lot of contradictory anecdotes, right there.

 

[godless dave]

Dave,
- It could. Wormholes?

So would you agree that if someone writes a book saying that other people said certain things happened, that constitutes evidence that those things happened?