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For Kapyong: Defending a historical Jesus

What is there left to argue about? If the Philipians quote that I gave is correct, then that's the end of the discussion.

Because it shows that "Paul" very clearly believed that Jesus was a form of the heavenly Yahweh, who merely adopted human-like outward form etc.

Philipians 2:5-11
Have this in mind (of humble love) in you, which was also in Christ Jesus, who, existing in the form of God, did not decide to seize equality with God, but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being made in the likeness of men, and being 'discovered' as a man in outward form, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to the point of death, a death of a cross.
Yes, that passage is absolutely clear and unarguable. Note the name Christ Jesus, as if Christ is primary.

that passage is not written in ambiguous double-speak ... that passage repeatedly stresses in direct clear language that the writer (who is supposed to be "Paul"), believes that - Jesus existed "in the form of God" .... that he was "made in the likeness of men" ... in order to appear as if "a man in outward form".
There are other passages in other biblical and non-biblical texts that support the proposition that He was 'fleshed out'.
 
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Philipians 2:5-11Yes, that passage is absolutely clear and unarguable. Note the name Christ Jesus, as if Christ is primary.
You're taking that observation from the original text in Greek? Can you expand on your argument here?
There are other passages in other biblical and non-biblical texts that support the proposition that He was 'fleshed out'.
Please provide references or links to some of these, so that we may know what you have in mind.
 
Yeah, the order in the Greek original is "in Christ Jesus", but personally I wouldn't read much into that. Koine Grek, just like Latin and for that matter most languages that have a more... byzantine grammar, rely on declension and conjugation to figure out which word is which part of the sentence, not on order. So the word order is much less rigid than in English. You can pretty much scramble the words in a sentence, and it's still possibe to read it.

Basically unlike English you can write "man bites dog" or "dog bites man" and still mean that the man is the one bitten, by the declension. It's what tells you which is the subject and which is the object.

Ditto for adjectives and adverbs, which is what we have here. You can put it before, like adjectives usually are in English, or after, or make a merry mix of both, and you can still tell what's what.

So basically "messiah Jesus" or "Jesus the messiah" are the same thing. I wouldn't read more into that.
 
Yeah, the order in the Greek original is "in Christ Jesus", but personally I wouldn't read much into that ... So basically "messiah Jesus" or "Jesus the messiah" are the same thing. I wouldn't read more into that.
Moreover, "Christ" or "Messiah" is a human title, not a divine one. It refers to the human practice of anointing human rulers with oil; but they remain human. Here, from Isaiah 45:1 is Cyrus king of Persia being a "messiah" in Hebrew, and a "christos" in Greek. In this verse too, "Christos" comes first, before "Cyrus", if that is significant.

לִמְשִׁיחֹו֮ לְכֹ֣ורֶשׁ
χριστῷ μου Κύρῳ
 
Moreover, "Christ" or "Messiah" is a human title, not a divine one. It refers to the human practice of anointing human rulers with oil; but they remain human. Here, from Isaiah 45:1 is Cyrus king of Persia being a "messiah" in Hebrew, and a "christos" in Greek. In this verse too, "Christos" comes first, before "Cyrus", if that is significant.

Well, I wouldn't read all that much into that either.Jesus also wasn't really annointed on Earth in either version, so it's metaphoric language either way.
 
Well, I wouldn't read all that much into that either.Jesus also wasn't really annointed on Earth in either version, so it's metaphoric language either way.
To be a Davidic messiah surely he would need to have been anointed on earth? Of course he wasn't, and that may be the reason why he gradually became more supernatural over time, until the religion that developed in his name was defined by belief in his divinity, rather than in his messianic authority.
 
Well, of course. But then if you go literal, to be Abraham's seed and heir, just being some Celt that gets baptized wouldn't cut it. Paul was not taking the terms and requirements and OT scriptural justification literally. He goes metaphoric at times, symbolic at times, and plain delusional at times.

I think that Philippians quote is more relevant there than some people give it credit, because -- while it still may be adapted from a hymn, mind you -- it tells exactly that part of the story. Because of he's sacrifice, he's given the power and authority and all in heavens. It's essentially a coronation, so to speak. Something that would come with an anointing, at least in Earth terms.
 
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To be a Davidic messiah surely he would need to have been anointed on earth? Of course he wasn't, and that may be the reason why he gradually became more supernatural over time ...
[edited] Those premises aren't collectively logical in that sequence/series.

until the religion that developed in his name was defined by belief in his divinity, rather than in his messianic authority.
His divinity and 'messianic activity' could have developed hand in hand (in parallel).
 
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The Christian source I cited for the Philippians 2 Kenosis Hymn states that the hymn is
... not to show what Christ’s work means for us in regards to salvation, but to show what it meant for Christ himself in regards to his ultimate exaltation.​
Compare with
Romans 1:3 concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead​
Now, these statements are perfectly consistent; in that "ultimate exaltation" and "power ... by the resurrection" are expressions that mean the same thing; and they are evidently reconcilable in Paul's mind with a living human Jesus, prior to the death, resurrection and exaltation. It was subsequent to these alleged events, we may recall, that Paul made Jesus' acquaintance. For Paul, that was the important stuff.

Therefore, while you are completely right in stating
It's essentially a coronation, so to speak. Something that would come with an anointing, at least in Earth terms.
I don't think that anointing in earth terms suited Paul's purpose.

In Jesus' messianic aspect, he inherits the status from ancient David. He is emphatically not endowed with it by some human anointer contemporary with Paul, acting within the terms of Jewish Law. We know what Paul thought of that kind of thing.
 
[edited] Those premises aren't collectively logical in that sequence/series.


His divinity and 'messianic activity' could have developed hand in hand (in parallel).
So they could, chronologically. But to mainstream Christianity the defining element of its belief system - its "Shahada" if you will - is that Jesus was God, not that he was a Jewish Messiah, even if Christians also think he was one.
 
to mainstream Christianity the defining element of its belief system .. is that Jesus was God, not that he was a Jewish Messiah ..
I agree.

Though I don't think many Christians think he was a Jewish Messiah: more just a Christian one (there have been plenty that have been gobsmacked when told he was Jewish (probably less today as people generally seem a bit more aware of the history)).

"Shahada" is at odds with the notion of the Trinity.
 
I agree.

Though I don't think many Christians think he was a Jewish Messiah: more just a Christian one (there have been plenty that have been gobsmacked when told he was Jewish (probably less today as people generally seem a bit more aware of the history)).

"Shahada" is at odds with the notion of the Trinity.
The "notion of the Trinity" is not simply false - it is mere gibberish.
 
It is really a waste of time for posters here to continue to mis-represent the writings under the name of Paul.

We have writings of antiquity that clearly show that letters under the name of Paul were used to advance the fiction character--the God/Man/Spirit called Jesus.

The writing called "On the Flesh of Christ" attributed to Tertullian completely destroys the absurd claims that letters under the name of Paul supported a heavenly only or a human only Jesus.

http://newadvent.org/fathers/0315.htm

Examine "On the Flesh of Christ"

Let us examine our Lord's bodily substance, for about His spiritual nature all are agreed.

It is His flesh that is in question.


Its verity and quality are the points in dispute.

Did it ever exist?

Whence was it derived?

And of what kind was it?



Examine On the Flesh of Christ 1.18

Now, that we may give a simpler answer, it was not fit that the Son of God should be born of a human father's seed, lest, if He were wholly the Son of a man, He should fail to be also the Son of God......... In order, therefore, that He who was already the Son of God— of God the Father's seed, that is to say, the Spirit— might also be the Son of man, He only wanted to assume flesh, of the flesh of man without the seed of a man; for the seed of a man was unnecessary for One who had the seed of God.

As, then, before His birth of the virgin, He was able to have God for His Father without a human mother, so likewise, after He was born of the virgin, He was able to have a woman for His mother without a human father.

He is thus man with God, in short, since He is man's flesh with God's Spirit — flesh (I say) without seed from man, Spirit with seed from God....



Examine "On the Flesh of Christ" 1.20

But Paul, too, silences these critics when he says, “God sent forth His Son, made of a woman.”[ Galatians 4:4] Does he mean through a woman, or in a woman? Nay more, for the sake of greater emphasis, he uses the word “ made” rather than born, although the use of the latter expression would have been simpler.

But by saying “ made,” he not only confirmed the statement, “The Word was made flesh,” [John 1:14] but he also asserted the reality of the flesh which was made of a virgin.

The Jesus in the letters under the name of Paul was a God/Man/Spirit without a human father.

The Jesus in the letters under the name of Paul never ever existed.
 
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and they are evidently reconcilable in Paul's mind with a living human Jesus, prior to the death, resurrection and exaltation. It was subsequent to these alleged events, we may recall, that Paul made Jesus' acquaintance. For Paul, that was the important stuff.

Well, bearing in mind that Paul only met and received instructions from a celestial Jesus in his hallucinations. He also doesn't seem interested at all in learning anything about Jesus from those who supposedly knew him. Not only he says so more than once, but has no problem with not just setting Peter straight about how it works, but essentially telling Peter that the doctrines of James "the brother of the lord" are bullcrap.

Which is mighty strange for an earthly Jesus.

But, be that as it may, that's really what makes me not very interested in reconstructing either an Earthly or a Celestial Jesus. Any way that goes through Paul and Mark is a dead end. There is no HJ to find through those. If it's based on a real person -- and it might or it might not; I'm not excluding it -- we're not going to find any real information about him in the gospels or epistles.

Paul overtly refuses to even learn anything about what Jesus actually said or did, much less transmit it. He contradicts those who might have known what Jesus actually said or did, and he essentially tells his flock not to listen to those.

And gMark, aside from the other markers of writing fiction, makes it suspiciously conspicuous that he's covering his ass. Jesus did this, but he told people to keep it a secret, and they did. Then he said this, but he told people to keep it a secret, so they did. And he sent his apostles all over the place to spread his message, but they told people to keep it a secret, and surprisingly everyone did. Mark's text is LITERALLY a conspiracy theory.

And if you think about it, if you're writing stuff that actually happened, and taking it from witnesses, you don't need to add a "but here's why none of you ever heard about it" clause to everything. It would be well understood that some heard and some didn't, but you have your witnesses, so obviously it wasn't kept a secret. Other people would have heard of it too. You only need to be paranoid about clearing up why nobody ever heard of that, if literally nobody ever heard of that before. I.e., if you're making it up.

But anyway, for various reasons, gMark isn't a good source either. And gMatthew and gLuke don't actually have any first hand information either. They wouldn't need to copy wholesale from Mark if they actually knew or could reconstruct what actually happened.

So the gospels are a dead end too.

Well, that's been a long detour, but basically that's why I'm not all that fussed about whether the paranoid schizophrenic Paul really believed in an earthly or purely heavenly Jesus. He's not telling us anything leading to that guy anyway. He's just telling us his hallucinations and delusions.

It's like the ex-GF who thought that ghosts are trying to steal her soul through the nose. (Never said why specifically through the nose either.) Does it matter if it's ghosts from above, or below, or ground level, if they're only in her head anyway? And does it matter if it's the ghosts of some real persons she knew, or not? They still only exist in her head.

Same for Paul. There may have been a guy (or maybe not), but Paul doesn't tell us anything about him. The Jesus we get is the one from Paul's hallucinations, which is likely to be anything BUT historical.
 
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Examine [Tertullian's] "On the Flesh of Christ"
Let us examine our Lord's bodily substance, for about His spiritual nature all are agreed. It is His flesh that is in question. Its verity and quality are the points in dispute. Did it ever exist? Whence was it derived? And of what kind was it?
Before and after that passage was

before: "if it be once determined that Christ's flesh was human ... that flesh must by all means rise again, which has already risen in Christ. Therefore we shall have to guard our belief in the resurrection from the same armoury ..."

The passage
Let us examine our Lord's bodily substance, for about His spiritual nature all are agreed. It is His flesh that is in question. Its verity and quality are the points in dispute. Did it ever exist? Whence was it derived? And of what kind was it?

after: "If we succeed in demonstrating it, we shall lay down a law for our own resurrection. Marcion, in order that he might deny the flesh of Christ, denied also His nativity, or else he denied His flesh in order that he might deny His nativity; because, of course, he was afraid that His nativity and His flesh bore mutual testimony to each other's reality, since there is no nativity without flesh, and no flesh without nativity ...At all events, he who represented the flesh of Christ to be imaginary was equally able to pass off His nativity as a phantom; so that the virgin's conception, and pregnancy, and child-bearing, and then the whole course of her infant too, would have to be regarded as putative. These facts pertaining to the 'nativity' of Christ would escape the notice of the same eyes and the same senses as failed to grasp the full idea of His flesh."
 
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Examine "On the Flesh of Christ" 1.20
But Paul, too, silences these critics when he says, "God sent forth His Son, made of a woman" (Galatians 4:4). Does he mean through a woman, or in a woman? Nay more, for the sake of greater emphasis, he uses the word 'made' rather than 'born', although the use of the latter expression would have been simpler. But by saying made, he not only confirmed the statement, "The Word was made flesh" (John 1:14) but he also asserted the reality of the flesh which was [said to be] 'made' of a virgin.
Notice what Tertullian then uses to support his arguments -
"We shall have also the support of the Psalms on this point (not the Psalms indeed of Valentinus the apostate, and heretic, and Platonist), but the Psalms of David, the most illustrious saint and well-known prophet. He sings to us of Christ, and through his voice Christ indeed also sang concerning Himself. Hear, then, Christ the Lord speaking to God the Father: "You are He that drew me out of my mother's womb" [Psalm 22:9]. Here is the first point. "You are my hope from my mother's breasts; upon You have I been cast from the womb" [Psalm 22:9b,10a]. Here is another point. "You are my God from my mother's belly" [Psalm 22:10b] Here is a third point. Now let us carefully attend to the sense of these passages. "You drew me", He says, "out of the womb."

Now what is it which is drawn, if it be not that which adheres, that which is 'firmly fastened' to anything 'from which it is drawn' in order 'to be sundered'? If He clove not to the womb, how could He have been drawn from it? If He who clove thereto was drawn from it, how could He have adhered to it, if it were not that, all the while He was in the womb, He was tied to it, as to His origin, by the umbilical cord, which communicated growth to Him from the matrix? Even when one strange matter amalgamates with another, it becomes so entirely incorporated with that with which it amalgamates, that when it is drawn off from it, it carries with it some part of the body from which it is torn, as if in consequence of the severance of the union and growth which the constituent pieces had communicated to each other.
Notice the references to 'Christ' and 'Christ the Lord' ?

Notice the argument: "He who clove thereto was drawn from it, how could He have adhered to it, if it were not that, all the while He was in the womb .." Tertullian is hypostatizing Christ as human (ie. reifying him)

& see Psalm 22
 
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Originally Posted by Craig B
Unless they are willing to state that there are sacrifices in the Heavenly Jerusalem too ...
There is plenty of commentary on this -eg. -There is plenty of commentary on this -eg. -

Other examples: Revelation describes a slain lamb in heaven. Hebrews informs us that the earthly temple cult was believed to be a shadow of the heavenly.
 
So the gospels are a dead end too.

... I'm not all that fussed about whether the paranoid schizophrenic Paul really believed in an earthly or purely heavenly Jesus. He's not telling us anything leading to that guy anyway. He's just telling us his hallucinations and delusions.
I don't accept that, and I have explained at length in a huge number of posts what information I think can be drawn, with higher than zero probability, from these sources. But if you dismiss all this as hallucinations, then fine. Who can argue with that?
 
Paul in that frikken Epistle said "heirs according to the promise" but he says in frikken Romans
3 ... concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 5 by whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith​
Paul clearly distinguishes physical from spiritual affinity. He is saying . . . that Jesus was of the seed of David in the flesh, he means a physical descendant, and one with recognised messianic qualifications.

"made of seed .... according to the flesh" is a convoluted and uncertain way of saying "born as a flesh and blood human being" if the latter is what he means, as several others have pointed out in detail.

Nor is it arbitrary to suspect interpolation of this passage. We know Paul's letters were a minefield of doctrinal wars with claims and counterclaims of falsifying them:

1. Text-critical evidence for interpolation – inexplicable failure of Tertullian to cite the Son of David reference here: Tertullian (Contra Marcion 4.36) relishes the use of Bartimaeus addressing Jesus as “Son of David” to counter Marcion’s assertion that Jesus had no human lineage or social recognition at his coming. Since Tertullian knew Paul was Marcion’s sole apostle it is perplexing that he did not conclusively push his argument against Marcion by citing this passage in Romans if it were known to him. He had opportunity to do so in CM 4.36 when discussing the Bartimaeus passage and again in CM 5.13 when discussing Romans. Even if we surmise that the reason he did not address the Romans passage was because it had been expunged by Marcion despite being kept in the gospel then we have even deeper perplexity since Tertullian would have loved nothing more than another opportunity to accuse Marcion of scandalous, hypocritical inconsistency.

2. Contextual evidence for interpolation: Romans 1:1-3 is an unnaturally extended epistolary introduction. (The normal ancient introduction was simply modest handful of words expressing little more, often no more, than “From X to Y”.) The formal introduction of a letter is simply not the place to embark on a lengthy digression to discuss several specific doctrinal and biographical points and is not found in any other ancient letters.

“Which he promised afore through his prophets in the holy scriptures”: This passage is a digression about the gospel Paul preaches and it stands oddly in the middle of a personal greeting at the opening of a letter. One is led to imagine an author in advanced state of dementia who loses track of what he is saying and wanders off before he can even finish a conventional “Hello, I’m Paul, I’m very glad to see you!” and thereby wandering off into possibly the longest letter opening in history.

Another conceptual jarring within these opening lines is one claim that Paul’s apostleship is of singular importance and set him apart for a “separate” function (1:1) and another that his apostleship is a communal “we” affair (1:5). There is no obvious room for both these views side by side: is the author feeling a bit on the bipolar side with the very first lines of his essay?

The longer text is not only unique in its length for an ancient letter but forms a clumsy transition to 1:7 by its awkwardly adjacent repetitions of what they are called to be:

Among whom are ye also called to be Jesus Christ's:
To all that are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints​

Without 1:2-6 we find that Rom.1:1 is followed naturally and smoothly, and consistently with ancient letters, by 1:7. Indeed, that 1:1 directly anticipated 1:7 is seen by the dual threefold conceptual correspondence:

Paul,
a servant of Jesus Christ,
called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God

To all that are in Rome,
beloved of God,
called to be saints​


3. Ideational evidence for interpolation: 1:3, by virtue of being at the opening of the letter as an explanation of the very gospel Paul preaches, imputes great significance to the idea that Jesus was the Son of David. This contradicts Paul’s firm insistence elsewhere that he has no interest in the fleshly lineage or heritage of Jesus, even dismissing any such interest as a waste of time:

Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer (2 Cor.5:16)​

Later in Romans the author further says that Jesus came to earth only in “the likeness” of sinful flesh, thus again contradicting the idea that he could have been a literal Son of David:

God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh (Rom.8:3)​

The opening verses introduce the adoptionist doctrine that Jesus was only declared to be the Son of God at the resurrection. This also contradicts Romans 8:3 (quoted above) where the author accepts that it was “his Son” that God sent to earth, ostensibly “as” His Son, prior to any death and resurrection.


4. Comparative evidence for interpolation: I have already referred to the apparent contradiction of Paul in one line asserting his separating personal apostleship and in another the commonality of his apostleship with others. The former assertion, that his apostleship sets him apart in a singular way, is certainly consistent with his assertions of a unique apostolic calling expressed in Galatians; while the latter assertion, that of a “communal apostleship”, would appear to be consistent with the way Acts, contrary to the letters, depicts Paul as one of several other apostles, even subordinate to them.


1:5 speaks of the Romans’ “obedience to the faith”. Yet one of the widely accepted features of “the genuine” Pauline letters is his concept of faith as an act or a mental state or response. The Pastorals, on the other hand, view faith as a regulatory set of teachings or dogma to which one subscribes. Partly for this reason the Pastorals are widely thought to be non-Pauline. So when we read in 1:3 of “obedience to the faith” we must think of this sort of faith as something that can be obeyed, i.e., as a non-Pauline understanding of the term.


5. Motivational evidence: This passage in question touches the major doctrinal controversies in the early history of Christianity – the uniqueness of Paul or his subservience and identity with the other apostles; the relationship between faith and obedience; the nature of Jesus when he appeared on earth, and what was meant by the Son of God; and the status and relevance of the Jewish scriptures for Christianity. Macion claimed Paul as his authority and the sole true apostle for all, rejected the physical genealogy of Jesus and viewed him as the Son of God from the beginning, and denied the relevance of the Jewish scriptures to his gospel. One can imagine an anti-Marcionite redactor of wanting to “save” Paul’s writings, and the souls of his readers, by steering them into a “correct” understanding of the great apostle, even reminding them of their need for “obedience” to the precepts of the “faith” as taught by the authorities, such as himself, in the church.

6. Locational evidence: Why here, in the opening greeting? The intrusion of doctrinal and biographical information in what should otherwise be a simple greeting might suggest that someone has tried to guide a reader into a correct understanding as they commence to engage a notoriously controversial letter. Tertullian admitted the letter “looks very much as if it abrogated the law”, but this introduction takes time out to speak of “obedience” to a non-Pauline concept of “faith”; this passage wedged in the greeting also counters any tendency to see Paul as a Sole Apostle for all his greatness; it especially sets “aright” one’s understanding of the nature of Jesus as a real man with human ancestry before one encounters any subsequent potentially “confusing” references to Jesus being in only the “likeness” of flesh; and finally it prepares readers for an adoptionist understanding of the Son of God.
 
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originally posted by Mcreal:
There are other passages in other biblical and non-biblical texts that support the proposition that He was 'fleshed out'.
Please provide references or links to some of these, so that we may know what you have in mind.
eg. see the posts by dejudge and myself between this reply and your original
 

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