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"New History" - Israeli's revising the history of Israel

Originally posted by kimiko
Are you equating pan-Arabism, Arab self-determination, with Nazism and white supremacy?

Did you read the biography of Muhammed Amin al-Husseini or not? If you had, this question would be kinda silly.

Originally posted by kimiko
And do you have sources to correct my history?

Are you claiming to be unaware of and completely unable to find on your own evidence of anti-Jewish violence in the Holy Land prior to al-Husseini?
 
a_unique_person said:
As for Al hussani, he knew 60 years ago what Sharon has acknowleded today, that it's all about demographics. What race is living where. When he realised that, he knew what was coming next. War, invasion, suffering.
Al-Husseini wasn't a racial purist. Even Mycroft's source has a quote from him where he distinguishes between the immigrants with Jewish nationalist ideology and the native Jewish population.
As a young man, al-Husseini worked with a native Jew, Abbady, who documented this comment: Remember, Abbady, this was and will remain an Arab land. We do not mind you natives of the country, but those alien invaders, the Zionists, will be massacred to the last man. We want no progress, no prosperity. Nothing but the sword will decide the fate of this country.
That doesn't show a hatred for all Jewish people, but it shows a deep enmity for competing nationalists.
 
Mycroft said:
Did you read the biography of Muhammed Amin al-Husseini or not? If you had, this question would be kinda silly.
I did. It doesn't dispel the idea that his actions were part of a violent political campaign, which involved brutality to the competing nationalist movement.
Once he was in power, he began a campaign of terror and intimidation against anyone opposed to his rule and policies
Are you claiming to be unaware of and completely unable to find on your own evidence of anti-Jewish violence in the Holy Land prior to al-Husseini?
You claimed I was wrong, you provide the proof.
 
kimiko said:
Al-Husseini wasn't a racial purist. Even Mycroft's source has a quote from him where he distinguishes between the immigrants with Jewish nationalist ideology and the native Jewish population. That doesn't show a hatred for all Jewish people, but it shows a deep enmity for competing nationalists.

Sure. The "token Jew" who's not a threat to the "natural order of things" is acceptable. This is perfectly compatable with racist ideology.

Originally posted by kimiko
I did. It doesn't dispel the idea that his actions were part of a violent political campaign, which involved brutality to the competing nationalist movement.

Which again, doesn't exclude racism.

Originally posted by kimiko
You claimed I was wrong, you provide the proof.

Sorry. I don't run errands when your purpose is just to be obtuse. I didn't come here to convince "kimiko" of anything, it was you who joined the conversation with me.

Overall, you're arguing that you're not convinced that the guy who organized anti-Jewish pograms, allied with the Nazi's, organized Arab volunteers into Waffen SS units, and personally urged Eichmann to accelerate the extermination of Jews wasn't a racist.

Kimiko, we may have to just agree to disagree on this. If you can't even agree that al-Husseini was a racist, then we may not share enough common concepts to make communication possible.

Maybe a lefty source would help you out. I sometimes read this blog, which keeps an interesting archive.
 
Mycroft said:
Overall, you're arguing that you're not convinced that the guy who organized anti-Jewish pograms, allied with the Nazi's, organized Arab volunteers into Waffen SS units, and personally urged Eichmann to accelerate the extermination of Jews wasn't a racist.

Kimiko, we may have to just agree to disagree on this. If you can't even agree that al-Husseini was a racist, then we may not share enough common concepts to make communication possible.
I'm not arguing that he wasn't a racist, he quite clearly was. I'm arguing he was nationalistic first, so it's unclear that racism was his primary motivation.
 
It really boil down to this.

The Palestinians have had two leaders in the 20th century. Both were screwed-up and racist dictators, the first - al-Husayni - organized anti-Zionist demonstrations, led anti-jewish riots and conspired with Hitler to wipe out the jews. If that ain't racist I dunno what is. The second - Arafat - led a 40-year international terror campaign which caused the deaths of thousands of people - arab, christian and jewish...that is, while he stole billions in international aid.

If anyone here does not find those truths problematic and a real big reason why the Palestinians are where they are today then there is really no point in debating the subject. To place the plight of the Palestinians squarely onto the lap of "european zionists" is like blaming the actions of the British on the French.

I am always amazed to what depths people will go to to give Arafat and al-Husayni a free pass on culpability.
 
It isn't their mere presence, it is the aspect of control.

That is every bigot's excuse.

It's not that he hates blacks' existence, it's just that they don't know their place any more and sometimes even employ white people.

It's not that he hates jews' existence, he's just against their control of the banks and the media.

It's not that he hates women's existence, he just doesn't like those ideas about being able to demand things form men the feminists put in her silly little head.

And so on and so forth. Bigotry is always based on fear, and fear is always based on the idea that they will "control" the obviously-superior you.

I'm not arguing that he wasn't a racist, he quite clearly was. I'm arguing he was nationalistic first.

The same is true for Hitler, who was a fervent Germanophile long before he started hating jews (at least publically).

It is only after he discovered what the evil jews have done or are plannig to do to his beloved Germany that he became an antisemite who wanted all the jews dead.

So, clearly, Hitler wasn't really an antisemite, or at least, "a nationalist first and an antisemite second" (as if the two are incompatible).
 
Skeptic said:
It isn't their mere presence, it is the aspect of control.

That is every bigot's excuse.

It's not that he hates blacks' existence, it's just that they don't know their place any more and sometimes even employ white people.

It's not that he hates jews' existence, he's just against their control of the banks and the media.

It's not that he hates women's existence, he just doesn't like those ideas about being able to demand things form men the feminists put in her silly little head.

And so on and so forth. Bigotry is always based on fear, and fear is always based on the idea that they will "control" the obviously-superior you.

He didn't say he hated Jews existence, he hated the idea of a Jewish state being created. The act of creating a Jewish state means that those who aren't Jews become an obstacle in the path of those who are creating a Jewish state.
 
zenith-nadir said:
It really boil down to this.

The Palestinians have had two leaders in the 20th century. Both were screwed-up and racist dictators, the first - al-Husayni - organized anti-Zionist demonstrations, led anti-jewish riots and conspired with Hitler to wipe out the jews. If that ain't racist I dunno what is. The second - Arafat - led a 40-year international terror campaign which caused the deaths of thousands of people - arab, christian and jewish...that is, while he stole billions in international aid.

If anyone here does not find those truths problematic and a real big reason why the Palestinians are where they are today then there is really no point in debating the subject. To place the plight of the Palestinians squarely onto the lap of "european zionists" is like blaming the actions of the British on the French.

I am always amazed to what depths people will go to to give Arafat and al-Husayni a free pass on culpability.

You are right about it being pointless to debate the issue.

That apart, the acts of the 'european zionists' where to create a Jewish state. Clearly, non Jews are going to be a problem when the aim is to have a Jewish state. Otherwise, what's the point of having a Jewish state that isn't Jewish? The whole concept was not well thought out, especially when you consider the territories controlled by Israel, no longer have Jews as a majority.
 
zenith-nadir said:
It really boil down to this.

The Palestinians have had two leaders in the 20th century. Both were screwed-up and racist dictators, the first - al-Husayni - organized anti-Zionist demonstrations, led anti-jewish riots and conspired with Hitler to wipe out the jews. If that ain't racist I dunno what is. The second - Arafat - led a 40-year international terror campaign which caused the deaths of thousands of people - arab, christian and jewish...that is, while he stole billions in international aid.

Is anyone challenging that? You are constantly pointing it out, I don't think its a point of dispute.


If anyone here does not find those truths problematic and a real big reason why the Palestinians are where they are today then there is really no point in debating the subject.

I'm not sure you would have much difficulty in getting resounding agreement that these two mens actions are "a real big reason" I'd even let you get away with a "really really big reason". What of the actions of Israel. What role, if any, do you see Israel having in the plight of palestinians?




To place the plight of the Palestinians squarely onto the lap of "european zionists" is like blaming the actions of the British on the French.

I am always amazed to what depths people will go to to give Arafat and al-Husayni a free pass on culpability.

Are you talking about people on this forum? If so, can you show an example of someone giving those people a "free pass" on culpability....simply show us a single post from a single person that says they have no culpability. I've been here for quite a while and I've only seen people arguing that thier actions are not the sole problem.....but I would be interested to see examples of the "free pass" statements if you would point out some, or just one.
This debate will stay permanently stalled if you want to provide both arguments...your own and your opinion of what others position is....
It is difficult to discuss the realities of the situation when you point to one version and proclaim it absolute truth.
 
The Fool said:
This debate will stay permanently stalled if you want to provide both arguments...your own and your opinion of what others position is....
It is difficult to discuss the realities of the situation when you point to one version and proclaim it absolute truth.

I could point out that the Sharon family is caught up in it's own fraud charges, but I don't see the point.
 
The Fool said:
What of the actions of Israel. What role, if any, do you see Israel having in the plight of palestinians?
Let put the horse before the cart. Instead of blaming Israel for the Palestinians actions, lets give credit to the Palestinians for their own actions.

Human beings, AKA "zionists"/european jews/what-ever-the-label didn't blitzkrieg Palestine with tanks and wipe out the population. They moved there peacefully from 1881 to 1914, bought land and build frikkin farms. Farms! In the deserts and swamps! There is no recorded war by zionists upon Palestinians from 1881 to 1914. Al-Husayni's - and his Arab Higher Committee - answer to this immigration was to immediately demand an end to it, ban land sales to Jews, lead anti-jewish riots and eventually conspire with Hitler to wipe out the jews in Palestine. Nice guy. Al-Husayni and his Arab Higher Committee chose that path...Israel did not choose that path for them. And if you tell me his only answer was to attack other human beings and kill them because they wanted to live there then you are as xenophobic as he was.

So now we already have a climate - pre-israel - where Arab/Palestinians are attacking Jewish colonies, kibbutzim and quarters in towns. This status quo has remained in place until today...through several wars... except after 90 years Israel now exsists, the Palestinians are on the receiving end, occupied and with absolutely nothing to show for al-Husayni's and Arafat's brilliant carreers except a overcrowding, refugee camps, perpetual war, occupation and crushing poverty. When the Palestinians - specifically the Palestinian combatants "acting in the name of" Palestinian Nationalism - finally lay down their arms the Palestinians will enjoy peace with Israel just like Egypt and Jordan do.

The Fool said:
This debate will stay permanently stalled if you want to provide both arguments...your own and your opinion of what others position is....
Nothing is stalled. You feel the Palestinians do what they do because of Israel. I feel the Palestinians do what they do because of their leaders - specifically Al-Husayni, Nasser, Arafat, Hamas, Islamic Jihad and many on the Arab League.
 
kimiko said:
I'm not arguing that he wasn't a racist, he quite clearly was. I'm arguing he was nationalistic first, so it's unclear that racism was his primary motivation.

Look, the guy personally urged Eichmann to accelerate the extermination of Jews. You just don't get more anti-Semetic than that. I don't care how nationalistic you are, if you're telling Adolph Eichmann he's not killing Jews fast enough, then your rightful place in history is as a war criminal.

If you think his "primary motivation" in the face of such extreme racism is relevent, then we have nothing to discuss. If you can look at a guy who personally toured the concentration camps, who saw the gas chambers in operation and came away saying it's not enough, and still say his racism might not be enough to convince you, then clearly there is no standard at all that will convince you.
 
zenith-nadir said:
Let put the horse before the cart. Instead of blaming Israel for the Palestinians actions, lets give credit to the Palestinians for their own actions.

Human beings, AKA "zionists"/european jews/what-ever-the-label didn't blitzkrieg Palestine with tanks and wipe out the population. They moved there peacefully from 1881 to 1914, bought land and build frikkin farms. Farms! In the deserts and swamps! There is no recorded war by zionists upon Palestinians from 1881 to 1914. Al-Husayni's - and his Arab Higher Committee - answer to this immigration was to immediately demand an end to it, ban land sales to Jews, lead anti-jewish riots and eventually conspire with Hitler to wipe out the jews in Palestine. Nice guy. Al-Husayni and his Arab Higher Committee chose that path...Israel did not choose that path for them. And if you tell me his only answer was to attack other human beings and kill them because they wanted to live there then you are as xenophobic as he was.

If all the land was being bought for was standard commercial transactions, I would conced the point. Land bought for Jewish use, by Zionists, was only ever to be used for Zionist purposes, it was never to be sold back to Arabs or anyone else. Maybe you have missed the ruckus the disengagment is causing now.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/612521.html

[/quote]

On Saturday night, the Book of Lamentations was read to commemorate Tisha B'Av, a day of mourning for the destruction of the Temple. Some of the verses, such as Lamentations 5:2 - "Our inheritance has been turned over to strangers, our homes to gentiles" - were read in a frighteningly real context.

[/quote]

That's what Zionism is about. That is what was behind the resistance to the rise of Zionism. Nothing in Israel was ever supposed to be returned to 'gentiles', according to the extremists. There are plenty of Israelis who are pragmatic enough about what is happening, but the 'greater israel' faction had a definite goal, the creation of a Jewish state, in borders that included a significant number of people were weren't Jewish.



 
What I keep thinking is, what would have we been hearing if Hitler had failed? What would we be hearing here if in 1938, for some reason, the jews of Germany rose up, and in an armed struggled killed or expelled the Nazis from Germany?

It's easy to guess. Kimiko would be claiming that, since Hitler was a nationalist first and only later an antisemite, he in some way wasn't "really" an antisemite, or at least his oft-repeated desire to kill all the jews is undestandable as a nationalist movement of liberation.

Others would point to the "situational factors" that caused the Nazis hatered of jews, by referring to Hitler's speeches about how they control all the banks, money, crime, etc. Clearly, we would be told, it is the jews' actions that brought such hatered on themselves.

"A Unique Person" would add, gravely, that Hitler, for all his faults, was a true prophet: had he not predicted accurately "the fate of the Nazis in Germany" at the hand of the jews? That this faith was only caused as a jewish reaction to the genocidal hate on the Nazis' part in the first place would be conveniently ignored as of no account. Surely, our imagined 1938 events were the cause and justification of Hitler's 1919 (I think) first public speeches against the jews, so the hate was justified.

(Of course, by the same logic, if somebody attacks me in the street for no reason today, and I call the cops and they put him in jail, I had caused him to be put in jail, so he had a good reason to attack me in the first place--so his attack was really preemptive (sp?) self-defense after all, and he should be freed! Strange how such junk logic only works when one needs to explain away why it is OK to attack jews in the street).

Anything else? Well, to judge by previous posts of people in this forum, "A Unique Person" would be explaining that Hitler's expressed goal to kill all the jews in Germany was not really antisemitism since it was limited "to a specific geographical area".

Naturally, for "peace", the jews in Germany would be pressured to let the exiled nazis back in; not that these Nazis had given up their dream of butchering all the jews--if anything, in the meantime their dream had become stronger and their deeds more violent--but they have the "right of return" to better jew-killing positions as a birthright.

The fate of the jews in that case is considered either of no account or deserved: had they not expelled the Nazis in the first place just because they threathened to kill them all, it would not be demanded today that they take them all back despite their continued, expressed desire to kill them all.

In other words, the jews would be expected to let the Nazis kill them all now, as a fair and obvious--not to say long overdue--compensation for not letting them kill them all in 1938.

Absurd? Morally despicable? Disgusting? A thinly-veiled desire to let the Nazis do now what they failed to do in 1938? Well, yes. But just replace "1938" with "1948" and "Nazis" with "Arabs" and you've got the "just and reasonable" position about the so-called "Arab-Israeli conflict".

The only difference between Al Husseni and Hitler is that one failed to kill off the jews and the other succeeded. This is not a moral, but merely a practical, difference. It does not make his views justified in any way, any more than Hitler's views would have gained credibility simply from failing to initiate the holocaust.

By the way, the "Arab-israeli conflict" in itself a misnomer equivalent to calling the holocaust the "Nazi-jewish conflict": we have here simply one side determined to annihilate the other to the last baby. It is a "conflict" because the Arabs, so far, had failed in launching Holocaust 2, nothing more.
 
a_unique_person said:
If all the land was being bought for was standard commercial transactions, I would conced the point.
The land was bought to build farming collectives so that jews could emigrate there and escape pogroms and persecution in Russia and Europe. That is not a crime.

a_unique_person said:
Land bought for Jewish use, by Zionists, was only ever to be used for Zionist purposes, it was never to be sold back to Arabs or anyone else.
When someone buys land legally they have the choice to do with the land what they please.

a_unique_person said:
Maybe you have missed the ruckus the disengagment is causing now.
Of course it is causing a rukus, do you think human beings in Gaza are happy about being removed from their homes? Yet they will be gone and the Palestinians will still be run by a corrupt government and have para-military terror groups roaming the streets and causing friction with their closest neighbor.

a_unique_person said:
That's what Zionism is about. That is what was behind the resistance to the rise of Zionism. Nothing in Israel was ever supposed to be returned to 'gentiles', according to the extremists.
So now Lamentations 5:2 in the torah is responsible for the actions of Al-Husayni, Nasser, Arafat, Hamas, Islamic Jihad and many on the Arab League?

a_unique_person said:
There are plenty of Israelis who are pragmatic enough about what is happening, but the 'greater israel' faction had a definite goal, the creation of a Jewish state, in borders that included a significant number of people were weren't Jewish.
And for that they must all die...right a_u_p?
 
If all the land was being bought for was standard commercial transactions, I would conced the point.

Oh, C'mon, AUP, it's jews we're talking about. They never just buy land (or a bank or a newspaper or a corporation or...); there's always some lurking menace behind their actions.

Your point is, of course, that while the jews did buy the land from willing sellers fair and square, since it wasn't just buying the land but had some idea of a jewish homeland, then the seller is perfectly justified in reneging on the deal and violently trying to kill them.

It is typical of antisemites to think this way--namely, that deals with jews need not be kept, and the legal rights of jews need not be considered, since the evil jews did not just buy a newspaper or business or land, but did it with the evil purpose of some nefarious plot (jewish national home, control of the banking system, poisoning the mind of the masses with atheistic or liberal editorials, etc., etc., etc.)--so it is OK to take it all away from them by violence.
 
a_unique_person said:
He didn't say he hated Jews existence, he hated the idea of a Jewish state being created. The act of creating a Jewish state means that those who aren't Jews become an obstacle in the path of those who are creating a Jewish state.

This is your interpretation of historical events, and I'm afraid it has no factual basis but is merely made up to conform to your prejudices. To illustrate, I'll show you some selected quotes from this Wikipedia article.

Pre-war
In 1933, within weeks of Hitler's rise to power in Germany, al-Husayni sent a telegram to Berlin addressed to the German counsul-general in the British Mandate of Palestine saying he looked forward to spreading their ideology in the Middle East, especially in Palestine and offered his services. Al-Husayni's offer was rejected at first out of concern for disrupting Anglo-German relations by allying with an anti-British leader. But one month later, Al-Husayni secretly met Wolff, the German Consul-General, near the Dead Sea and expressed his approval of the anti-Jewish boycott in Germany and asked him not to send any Jews to Palestine. Later that year, the Mufti's assistants approached Wolff, seeking his help in establishing a National Socialist Arab party in Palestine. Wolff and his superiors disapproved because they didn't want to become involved in a British sphere of influence, the Nazis desired further Jewish immigration to Palestine, and because at the time the Nazi party was restricted to German speaking "Aryans" only.


He's contacting Nazis, saying he's looking forward to spreading their ideology in the Middle East. Clearly this goes above and beyond merely being anti-Zionist as he's praising anti-Jewish activity in Germany, far away from Jerusalem, and seeking to join with them even though at that point in history they're working at cross purposes because the Nazi's are encouraging Jewish immigration to the Holy Land.

Can you imagine being a non-German speaking non-Aryan and still wanting to organize your own branches of the NAZI party? Of course, later on the definition of “Aryan” was expanded, and he was able to recruit his own Waffen SS, but at this point we're talking about 1933.

When the Red Cross offered to mediate with Adolf Eichmann in a trade prisoner-of-war exchange involving the freeing of German citizens in exchange for 5,000 Jewish children being sent from Poland to the Theresienstadt death camp, Husseini directly intervened with Himmler and the exchange was cancelled.

Wow, he's personally responsible for making sure that 5000 Jewish children made it to a Nazi death camp. Can that be excused as “merely” anti-Zionist? His anti-Semitism here is demostratably greater than Eichmann's, how many people in all of history can make the claim of being a more extreme racist than the guy who personally organized the Holocaust?

How about this from the DailyKos archive:

In 1940, al-Husseini requested the Axis powers to acknowledge the Arab right "... to settle the question of Jewish elements in Palestine and other Arab countries in accordance with the national and racial interests of the Arabs and along the lines similar to those used to solve the Jewish question in Germany and Italy."

If he's “merely” anti-Zionist, why the need to organize a holocaust in the Holy Land? You don't need to slaughter people just to oppose their nationalisting ambitions, don't you agree that goes above and beyone? If by some mental gymnastics you can excuse creating your own holocaust in the Holy Land as being “merely” anti-Zionist, what's with the “other Arab countries?” If he's “merely” anti-Zionist, should he have a problem with Jews living in Baghdad? Can you answere this and still claim he doesn't hate the Jews existance?

While in Baghdad, Syria, al-Husseini aided the pro-Nazi revolt of 1941. He then spent the rest of World War II as Hitler's special guest in Berlin, advocating the extermination of Jews in radio broadcasts back to the Middle East and recruiting Balkan Muslims in Bosnia-Herzegovina (the Handschar Division) and Albania (Skanderbeg Division) and smaller units from throughout the Muslim world from Chechnya to Uzbekistan as the German army SS units that tried to wipe out Jewish communities throughout the region.

Again, he's advicating the extermination of Jews, going far beyond merely opposing Zionism. His Waffen SS units are killing Jews (and others) far removed from the Holy Land, it can't be excused as “merely” anti-Zionism.

So are you going to continue to excuse this man who's anti-Semitism was more extreme than the most extreme of the Nazis?
 
So are you going to continue to excuse this man who's anti-Semitism was more extreme than the most extreme of the Nazis?

In the usual way. Sure, he wanted all the jews dead, but the "root cause" that caused him to "react" this way was the "zionists" doing something to "provoke" him. That is, it's all the jews' fault that he wanted them all dead.

But I can't say I am particularly surprised that "A Unique Person" is an apologist for someone who is on record criticizing Hitler, Himmler, and Eichmann for not killing jews fast enough.

Birds of feather...
 
Skeptic said:
What I keep thinking is, what would have we been hearing if Hitler had failed? What would we be hearing here if in 1938, for some reason, the jews of Germany rose up, and in an armed struggled killed or expelled the Nazis from Germany?

It's easy to guess. Kimiko would be claiming that, since Hitler was a nationalist first and only later an antisemite, he in some way wasn't "really" an antisemite, or at least his oft-repeated desire to kill all the jews is undestandable as a nationalist movement of liberation.

Others would point to the "situational factors" that caused the Nazis hatered of jews, by referring to Hitler's speeches about how they control all the banks, money, crime, etc. Clearly, we would be told, it is the jews' actions that brought such hatered on themselves.

"A Unique Person" would add, gravely, that Hitler, for all his faults, was a true prophet: had he not predicted accurately "the fate of the Nazis in Germany" at the hand of the jews? That this faith was only caused as a jewish reaction to the genocidal hate on the Nazis' part in the first place would be conveniently ignored as of no account. Surely, our imagined 1938 events were the cause and justification of Hitler's 1919 (I think) first public speeches against the jews, so the hate was justified.

(Of course, by the same logic, if somebody attacks me in the street for no reason today, and I call the cops and they put him in jail, I had caused him to be put in jail, so he had a good reason to attack me in the first place--so his attack was really preemptive (sp?) self-defense after all, and he should be freed! Strange how such junk logic only works when one needs to explain away why it is OK to attack jews in the street).

Anything else? Well, to judge by previous posts of people in this forum, "A Unique Person" would be explaining that Hitler's expressed goal to kill all the jews in Germany was not really antisemitism since it was limited "to a specific geographical area".

Naturally, for "peace", the jews in Germany would be pressured to let the exiled nazis back in; not that these Nazis had given up their dream of butchering all the jews--if anything, in the meantime their dream had become stronger and their deeds more violent--but they have the "right of return" to better jew-killing positions as a birthright.

The fate of the jews in that case is considered either of no account or deserved: had they not expelled the Nazis in the first place just because they threathened to kill them all, it would not be demanded today that they take them all back despite their continued, expressed desire to kill them all.

In other words, the jews would be expected to let the Nazis kill them all now, as a fair and obvious--not to say long overdue--compensation for not letting them kill them all in 1938.

Absurd? Morally despicable? Disgusting? A thinly-veiled desire to let the Nazis do now what they failed to do in 1938? Well, yes. But just replace "1938" with "1948" and "Nazis" with "Arabs" and you've got the "just and reasonable" position about the so-called "Arab-Israeli conflict".

The only difference between Al Husseni and Hitler is that one failed to kill off the jews and the other succeeded. This is not a moral, but merely a practical, difference. It does not make his views justified in any way, any more than Hitler's views would have gained credibility simply from failing to initiate the holocaust.

By the way, the "Arab-israeli conflict" in itself a misnomer equivalent to calling the holocaust the "Nazi-jewish conflict": we have here simply one side determined to annihilate the other to the last baby. It is a "conflict" because the Arabs, so far, had failed in launching Holocaust 2, nothing more.

this entire post consists of straw man after straw man.....do you see much point in presenting argument that consists entirely of you putting words in the mouths of those you disagree with?
 

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