For Kapyong: Defending a historical Jesus

"Hugely important to his illiterate followers" translates in him being important to history, which is the reason you cited for the standard of evidence being higher for Jesus according to you.

<snipped for clarity>


What??? :eye-poppi :eye-poppi .... Please ; stop merely claiming that I have said specific things, and just quote any post of mine that actually says that.

I don't recall ever saying that the reason why a higher standard of evidence is needed for Jesus, is as you have claimed me to say "(because he was) Hugely important to his illiterate followers" ...

... just quote any post of mine where I have ever said any such thing.
 
What??? :eye-poppi :eye-poppi .... Please ; stop merely claiming that I have said specific things, and just quote any post of mine that actually says that.

I don't recall ever saying that the reason why a higher standard of evidence is needed for Jesus, is as you have claimed me to say "(because he was) Hugely important to his illiterate followers" ...

I just explained to you exactly what you said and how it relates to my wording in this thread. Why are you ignoring that?
 
Every historian I know states that the Pauline tendency breaks with the Judeo-Christians in starting the hellenization of the Christianity and the "conquest" of Rome.

Hellenization has been described for Judaism, and Christianity arose out of an increasingly diverse Judaism as a result of Judaism's hellenization, but is there evidence that Christianity was hellenized after it was established?


“Lord” is the usual name to refer to Jesus in Pauline epistles.

Lord is also used to address angels in various texts, especially OT texts.
 
I just explained to you exactly what you said and how it relates to my wording in this thread. Why are you ignoring that?


Stop it! Quote any post of mine that says what you are claiming I said.

Stop just claiming that I said things ... just quote my posts please. Quote where I ever said, as you accuse me of saying, that better evidence is needed in the case of Jesus BECAUSE Jesus was "Hugely important to his illiterate followers"...

Why have you not quoted any post of me saying that? You have been asked for that 3 times now. It's your accusation, so you need to quote the post where I ever said that. :rolleyes:
 
Stop it! Quote any post of mine that says what you are claiming I said.

Stop just claiming that I said things ... just quote my posts please. Quote where I ever said, as you accuse me of saying, that better evidence is needed in the case of Jesus BECAUSE Jesus was "Hugely important to his illiterate followers"...

Why have you not quoted any post of me saying that?

There are THOUSANDS of posts in the historical Jesus threads and you're asking me to find some very specific ones, when all you need to do is confirm whether you indeed think that Jesus requires more evidence than other figures because of his historical importance, which is exactly what I was talking about.

But fine. Here's one: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10544694&postcount=4028

If you'd take two seconds of your time to stop being offended and instead read my posts, you'd see exactly what I'm talking about. Instead you're getting hung on the exact wording, for some silly reason, EVEN AFTER I explained exactly how it relates to your own claim. So why have you not acknowledged that?
 
Gday David Mo and all :)

I know the arguments of Ehrman and Carrier and I have seen some other considerations in Vridar blog. My argument is simpler: In the context of Galatians 1:19 "brother" is a blood brother.


Pardon me :) that's not an argument - that's a claim, an assertion.

My claim is simple too : ' Lord's brother ' is a TITLE.


Ehrman is wrong and Carrier also. The truth is at the mid point between them.


Ah, ipse dixit.


Kapyong
 
Gday IanS :)

Actually it was not rude at all. Nothing of the sort. You are reading something into it which was never there. But also you are now personalising things, which iirc is something warned against in the forum rules (and which is something I have not done).
It's better if you/anyone sticks to the subject, and leaves others here to decide how they wish to write their own responses.


Thanks for your reply :)
OK, I will not comment any further on your posts like that.

But I'm sure you can see I am trying to inculcate a friendly and polite atmosphere here :) because I've seen a lot of fora become very rude and unpleasant :(

Aren't we all colleagues here ? Equal seekers of truth ? Informed adults discussing matters of ancient history ?

I like to wake up and wonder what sort of interesting and challenging discussion will be found today :) Not to worry about what new abuse I will be subject to.

Not that I'm suggesting this place is abusive, it's actually quite friendly :) And I am keen to help keep it that way :D

It can be all too easy to mis-understand on the 'net - to take comments worse than they went intended, not having body-language to mellow things :) That's why I go out of my way with GDays and please and thank you etc.

Crikey, I'm waffling (my first triple espresso of the day.)

Anyway, I hope you will all help me to make this an especially friendly and polite place that attracts people, smart informed people :thumbsup:



Kapyong
 
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Gday Argumemnon and all :)

Well, considering how these discussions usually go I'd say HJ would be "some sort of Jewish preacher who inspired the creation of this religion" vs "a completely made up person as the basis for said religion". I lean towards the former, though I'll be damned if anyone can say anything about who that man was.


Just a quick point -

It is common to see the Mythical Jesus Theory presented like that :
' completely made up person ' or
' made from whole cloth ' or
' complete fiction. '

But that doesn't fully capture the picture, because it suggests 'Mark' was writing just fiction, totally free to make up anything he wanted to.

Rather - I argue, as many JMers and some HJers do, that 'Mark' used written sources which BOUND him in certain ways :
  • Paul - the source of the names Jesus Christ, Peter, James etc. and the crucifixion theme
  • The Tanakh - the Elijah / Elisha cycle, the suffering servant, Psalms etc.
  • The Greek myths / mysteries - the pattern of a Son of God suffering and triumphing through a trial, bringing salvation to his people
So 'Mark' was creating religious literature from elements that people already knew and believed in. It contained deep truths about God and man, presented as a story not literally true = myth.


Kapyong
 
Gday Nay_Sayer and all :)

The jesus myth is just a retelling of older resurrection tales; Horus comes to mind.


Horus eh ?
Well, what similarities between Horus and Jesus Christ do you see ?

Do you think Paul based his ideas on the Horus myth ? Or do you mean that G.Mark was based on it ?


Kapyong
 
Gday David Mo and all :)

You are welcome. Thanks to you also for resuming this old topic of this forum.


Thanks :) I've been at this for over 15 years now - the faces and names change, but as vridar notes, the argument hasn't progressed very far.

Every historian I know states that the Pauline tendency breaks with the Judeo-Christians in starting the hellenization of the Christianity and the "conquest" of Rome. This is a basic interpretation of the early Christian texts and I don't know any dissident voice. This has nothing to do with the analysis of personal intentionality of an individual. On the contrary, pure textual hermeneutics.


Hmmm, well - I don't think there is any merit in any argument based on claiming what some ancient author would, or would not, have written.

“Lord” is the usual name to refer to Jesus in Pauline epistles. “Brother of God” has not sense. God has no brother in the Jewish culture.


'Lord' can also refer to God. The ' Brother of the Lord (God) ' makes perfect sense as a title refering to someone especially pious.

Consider the Jewish name 'Ahijah', meaning brother of Jahveh. In a culture which call themselves the children of God. A Lord's Brother is sensible and plausible.

This cannot mean “spiritual brother” because this wouldn’t be a characteristic feature of this James (the other also are “spiritual brother”). Therefore, the more evident meaning of “Lord’s brother” is a blood brother of Jesus, called "The Lord" by Paul.


A title 'Lord's Brother' can easily be specific to one person. Similarly Paul's references to the other 'Brothers of the Lord' can easily refer to a small group who are especially respected.

Paul's words do NOT require a physical brother.

Let us stay with Paul. He mentions Jesus as a man several times. Philippians 2: 6-11; Romans, 1:3; 1 Cor 15:21, etc.


Yes, we all agree that Paul calls Jesus a 'man' (along with the Son of God.)

But a man may be :
  • a physical historical man of Earth, or
  • a spiritual angel-man of Heaven.
Have you merely ASSUMED that a man must be physical and historical ? Or can you show where Paul placed this man physically on Earth ?

I am careful. And you?


I try to be :)
I hope you'll be careful to note that the phrase is the 'Lord's Brother', not the Brother of Jesus.


Kapyong
 
Gday Mcreal and all :)

Thanks for that informative post Mcreal, I note the comment about the Brother of the Lord -

Dr Carrier said:
"So it’s just as likely, if not more so, that Paul means he met only the apostle Peter and only one other Judean Christian, a certain ‘brother James’. By calling him a brother of the Lord instead of an apostle, Paul is thus distinguishing this James from any apostles of the same name—just as we saw he used ‘brothers of the Lord’ to distinguish regular Christians from apostles in 1 Cor. 9.5 ..."​

"..the grammatical construction Paul uses in Gal. 1:19 is comparative. In other words, “Other than the apostles I saw no one, except James the Lord’s brother.” Thus, the construction Paul is using says James is not an Apostle. And both Trudinger and Hans Dieter Betz (who wrote the Fortress Press commentary on Galatians) cite a number of peer reviewed experts who concur (OHJ, p. 590, n. 100). There were of course Jameses who were Apostles. So Paul chose this construction to make clear he didn’t mean one of them (or a biological brother of Cephas, for that matter). He meant a regular “Brother of the Lord,” an ordinary non-apostolic Christian...


Very interesting and relevant. Makes better sense than my explanation actually. Keep up the good work Mcreal :)


Kapyong
 
Thanks for that informative post Mcreal ..Very interesting and relevant.

I note the comment about the Brother of the Lord
Kapyong
Thanks Kayong! Yes, note Carrier has researched and cited scholarship that was done independent of any mythical-Jesus theory -ie. L Paul Trudinger, Hans Dieter Betz, and also George Howard who
"observed that the examples Trudinger referenced still involve 'a comparison between persons or objects of the same class of things,' such as new friends and old friends belonging to the general class of friends, and indestructible elements and destructible elements belonging to the general class of elements. But that actually means Cephas and James belong to the same class (Brothers of the Lord, since Jesus is 'the firstborn of many brethren…'), which entails the distinction is between Apostolic and non-Apostolic Brothers of the Lord, just as Trudinger’s examples show a contrast being made between destructible and indestructible elements and old and new friends."​
Carrier then says "Howard’s objection thus actually confirms the very reading I’m pointing to."

Carrier has posted reference to another article on his blog (given to him via a supporter) -

James Boyer, “Other Conditional Elements in New Testament Greek,” Grace Theological Journal 4.2 (1983); 173-188 -​

It’s not as on point as Trudinger, Betz, or Howard, but I’ll quote it for relevance:

Around p. 180:

A special class of elliptical conditional clauses which occurs frequently and needs particular consideration involves the use of ei mê in the sense of ‘except.’

… [But…]

Included in the preceding category are a few examples which are not strictly exceptive. The ei mê protasis does not name the only exception to the negation of the apodosis, but rather it names the only alternative to the apodosis. For example, in Rev 9:4 ei mê tous anthrôpous [“except the men”] does not name the exceptions among ton chorton [etc.] who were not hurt, but rather states another class who, in contrast, were to be hurt. Rev 21:27 tells who will not enter the holy city, then after ei mê it describes a different group who will enter. So also probably Matt 12:4, unless we make the unlikely assumption that the priests mentioned were those who were present in David’s company. There is no difference in the idiom used, and the difference in sense is so obvious[n. 18] that it is almost unnoticed.

[n. 18 reads:] Gal. 1:19 is a passage where the difference is of considerable importance, but the issue must be settled on other considerations than the meaning of ei mê.


Boyer thus punts on the question of what Gal. 1:19 means. But he says it’s an “only-alternative” exceptive construction like the others he cites.

He cites Rev. 21:27, for example, which says “and there shall in no wise enter into it anything unclean, or he that maketh an abomination and a lie: but only they that are written in the Lamb’s book of life,” where clearly the latter category is excluding the former (i.e. those in the second category are not unclean, abominable, or a liar). One might say this is like Gal. 1:19 where the second category (“brother”) excludes the former (which would say those in the that category are never apostles), but Gal. differs in two respects:

Gal. 1:19 says “another of the apostles” and not “no apostles”; it therefore does not say, as Rev 21:27 does, that the second category wholly excludes the first (so some apostles may yet be brothers, and all Paul is saying is the next person he mentions is simply just not an apostle).

Galatians is using a different construction, correctly identified by Trudinger as the genitive of comparison. Thus, it says “other than apostles I saw only the brother James.” So Rev. 21:27 is not directly analogous. Paul’s construction is not saying apostles aren’t brothers; it’s just saying he met someone other than an apostle, someone who happened nevertheless to at least be a brother (and not some outsider or family member of an apostle’s household, etc).

Boyer also cites as an example Rev. 9:4, “they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree, but only such men as have not the seal of God on their foreheads,” which again lacks the genitive of comparison and is thus a good parallel for Rev. 21:27 but not, again, Gal. 1:19, except in representing the exceptive force of the idiom (in both cases the second category is supposed in some sense to not include the first, but this construction, not used by Paul, is far stronger in its exclusion than the comparative construction Paul used).

Boyer then cites as an example Matthew 12:4, “it was not lawful for him to eat it, nor for them who were with him, but only for the priests.” This is again not the comparative construction. It could be rendered “it was not lawful for him to eat it, nor for them who were with him, except the priests,” if we imagine David or some among his entourage were priests (which Boyer notes is not a plausible assumption), but that’s still not a grammatical parallel for what Paul is saying in Gal. 1:19.

So though Boyer acknowledges something problematic about the exceptive force of Gal. 1:19 (so much so he is worried about its implications and thus just avoids the question altogether), he doesn’t really analyze its distinctive grammar. Trudinger and Howard do (as do the others cited by Betz).
 
Gday Mcreal and all :)

Galatians is using a different construction, correctly identified by Trudinger as the genitive of comparison.
Thus, it says “other than apostles I saw only the brother James.”
So Rev. 21:27 is not directly analogous. Paul’s construction is not saying apostles aren’t brothers; it’s just saying he met someone other than an apostle, someone who happened nevertheless to at least be a brother (and not some outsider or family member of an apostle’s household, etc).


Great work Mcreal :)
That is a critical point - you're well informed on this - impressive :thumbsup: Your bolded sentence expresses it quite well, and the argument looks good.

For readers' reference, here is the Greek (from the very handy online Greek interlinear) :
Gal.1.19.jpg


So -
the reference to James being The Lord's Brother does NOT uniquely identify him as THE physical brother of Jesus, nor does it uniquely identify him as especially pious or respected (as I argued.)

Rather - there are Christians refered to as Lord's Brothers, who are distinct from those called Apostles (although a person could conceivably be in both.)

James is a Lord's Brother. When Paul mentions him, he is simply labelling him as such - which James ? ' James the Lord's Brother ' - that James.

There are some other Lord's Brothers too (1 Cor. 9:5.)

It's just a label, or title, for a small group of Christians, which includes James.


Kapyong
 
Actually, I would add that technically kurios COULD be the apostle in Galatians.

Kurios in greek doesn't just mean Lord like in English. In fact, it's not even a sinonym except in one of the lesser used and largely archaic meanings of lord, as in for example referring to the man of the family as the lord of the house. It technically means more like "owner". Sorta. It's someone who has the authority, usually by way of being the owner.

Unlike the English "lord", it can and IS used all over the place to mean stuff like "master". Both in a reverence kinda way, like you'd call someone 'sir' (e.g., Matthew 21:30), and as in "the master of the house." In fact it is actually explicitly used in the bible repeatedly for a master of the house. (Matthew 10:24; Luke 12:46; Luke 14:21; Luke 16:3, 5; Acts 16:16, 19, etc.) Or as in the master of some slaves. (Ephesians 6:5, 9; Colossians 4:1)

What I'm saying is that it wouldn't even be a far fetched phrasing if Paul was actually saying, "other than apostles I saw only James, the master's brother." As in the brother of the master of the house, i.e., he also saw Peter's brother James. Well, Jacob, a very common name too.

Basically Paul COULD saying that he just stayed at Peter's all the time place and really didn't go out and see anyone, but dutifully mentions the one person who happened to visit, a relative of Peter.
 
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Gday HansMustermann and all :)

Unlike the English "lord", it can and IS used all over the place to mean stuff like "master". Both in a reverence kinda way, like you'd call someone 'sir' (e.g., Matthew 21:30), and as in "the master of the house." In fact it is actually explicitly used in the bible repeatedly for a master of the house. (Matthew 10:24; Luke 12:46; Luke 14:21; Luke 16:3, 5; Acts 16:16, 19, etc.) Or as in the master of some slaves. (Ephesians 6:5, 9; Colossians 4:1)

What I'm saying is that it wouldn't even be a far fetched phrasing if Paul was actually saying, "other than apostles I saw only James, the master's brother." As in the brother of the master of the house, i.e., he also saw Peter's brother James. Well, Jacob, a very common name too.

Basically Paul COULD saying that he just stayed at Peter's all the time place and really didn't go out and see anyone, but dutifully mentions the one person who happened to visit, a relative of Peter.


Another good point, thanks HansMustermann :)

The Greek interlinear I showed above agrees - G2962 : Lord, Master, sir.


Kapyong
 
I don't think there is any merit in any argument based on claiming what some ancient author would, or would not, have written.
The intention of to extend Christ’s message to “pagans” (uncircumcised) is explicitly included in Paul. Not an elucubration.

'Lord' can also refer to God. The ' Brother of the Lord (God) ' makes perfect sense as a title referring to someone especially pious.
Consider the Jewish name 'Ahijah', meaning brother of Jahveh. In a culture which call themselves the children of God. A Lord's Brother is sensible and plausible.
Your hypothesis? Have you any quote of Paul speaking of a brother of the Father? The Father has Children, not brothers. Ahijah was not a current name in the first century and he was not a patronymic.

A title 'Lord's Brother' can easily be specific to one person. Similarly Paul's references to the other 'Brothers of the Lord' can easily refer to a small group who are especially respected.
New speculation based on a single verse: "Don't we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord's brothers and Cephas?" (1 Cor 9:5). If the apostles are not Lord's brothers then Cephas is not an apostle nor a Lord's brother. This contradicts the use of "apostle" and the references to Cephas in Pauline epistles.
Nowhere in the Pauline epistles is identified someone by his name and “Lords’s brother”. The names are followed by the parental filiation of the individual.
It seems that “Lord’s brother” is a generic and not very distinctive word that he applies to the true believers in Jesus (Christ). Similar to Mathew 12:50. When Paul uses this word to identify one of them never uses “Lord’s brother”. He uses “apostle”, the proper name or a distinctive mark with it. In this case “brother of the Lord” cannot be generic, but a patronymic.
You don’t realize that Paul’s language is neither clear nor definite. Paul was not a Cartesian. Even if “Lord’s brothers” was a special category for a group we cannot assign a precise meaning to it. None reference to “pious” is made, of course. In these circumstances we have to respect the elementary rule that in a case of lack explicit definition we have to accept the most common meaning of a word: in this case “blood brother”.
Yes, we all agree that Paul calls Jesus a 'man' (along with the Son of God.)
But a man may be (…)
a spiritual angel-man of Heaven.
An “angel-man”? I don’t know this category. An example, please. In Paul, of course.

NOTE: It is irrelevant for our discussion if James was or was not an apostle. What is clear is that he is named brother of the Lord (“Lord’s brother”).

Excuse my grammar. I am in a hurry.
 
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There are THOUSANDS of posts in the historical Jesus threads and you're asking me to find some very specific ones, when all you need to do is confirm whether you indeed think that Jesus requires more evidence than other figures because of his historical importance, which is exactly what I was talking about.

But fine. Here's one: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10544694&postcount=4028


I'm sorry but the link above does not show me saying what you are accusing me of at all. Why did you not quote from that link where you claim that it has me writing anything to the effect of saying "that better evidence is needed in the case of Jesus BECAUSE Jesus was only "Hugely important to his illiterate followers"... I have never said any such thing.

Instead of giving a link to a post of mine which says no such thing, why do you make accusations like that and then repeatedly fail (this the 5th time I've had to ask you) to post any quote from me saying any such thing at all?

If you are going to keep maintaining your accusation then you had better post a real quote from where I have ever said that we must be careful not to confuse "important to Christianity" with "important to history at the time". He could have been hugely important to his illiterate followers but largely obscure otherwise. This is a mistake that I think IanS is making, for instance.

Look;- what you have actually done with your accusation is that you have read various posts from me explaining why I do think that we should demand a better standard of evidence for the mere existence of Jesus than we do for other historical figures that really have no relevance or importance at all to anyone's lives today (e.g. figures like Pythagoras or Alexander the Great etc.) ... but you have added to that your own invention of claiming that the reason I have said that I want to see a better standard of evidence for Jesus is that as you said it's because " He (Jesus) could have been hugely important to his illiterate followers but largely obscure otherwise" ... but that is not the reason I have ever said that better evidence is needed ... in fact I don't think I have ever made any argument based on a claim of saying that Jesus was so important that we should have found better evidence of his existence ... that is actually a claim or suggestion that most HJ-sceptics seem to make, but contrary to your assertion it is NOT a claim that I have ever made!

What you have done is put 2 plus 2 together and got 68 and a quarter! You have taken the actual fact of me saying many times that we should require a particularly good standard of evidence for someone as immensely important as Jesus is today, and added to that the fact that other people (not me!) have said that Jesus was exteremly widely known in his own time, and you have put those two things together to accuse me of saying that the reason why we should require much better evidence is because I had said that Jesus was very widely and well known in his own time ... but I have never, repeat NEVER, said the latter at all !! ... I have never said that Jesus was so well known in his own time that that is the reason we should now surely find good evidence of him - I have never said anything remotely like that!

Please, be clear - the reason your accusation against me is 100% wrong, is because I have never claimed anywhere that the reason we should expect better evidence for Jesus is because he was particularly well known in his time ... in fact earlier in this very thread I have actually said the entire opposite of that, and said that he may indeed have been barely known outside of his own group of personal followers, and that may indeed be argued as one reason why we do not now find much if any evidence of him.


If you'd take two seconds of your time to stop being offended and instead read my posts, you'd see exactly what I'm talking about. Instead you're getting hung on the exact wording, for some silly reason, EVEN AFTER I explained exactly how it relates to your own claim. So why have you not acknowledged that?


Please see the above for a very full explanation of what I have ever actually said.
 
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I'm sorry but the link above does not show me saying what you are accusing me of at all.

As I said: if you get stuck on the precise wording, of course you won't find it. That's because I never claimed you said that word for word. I explained a mistake that people are making about the HJ debate and then named you as an example.

Thanks for taking me off ignore, by the way.

Look;- what you have actually done with your accusation is that you have read various posts from me explaining why I do think that we should demand a better standard of evidence for the mere existence of Jesus than we do for other historical figures that really have no relevance or importance at all to anyone's lives today

See? You DO think that.

Please, be clear - the reason your accusation against me is 100% wrong, is because I have never claimed anywhere that the reason we should expect better evidence for Jesus is because he was particularly well known in his time

I didn't say you did. This is what happens when you're too literal-minded.
 

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