Trump runs for POTUS/ Trumped Up! Part VII

I believe in Ye Olden Days the parties actually stood for something very distinct in England and it was a clear choice to vote for the MP of that party. In the last couple of decades, they're kinda boring and homogenized. Tony Blair was Labour?
Blair was New Labour. More than a re-brand, a new centre-left party run on modern professional lines. The actual party was so demoralised they let the Blair-Mandelson clique have a shot, and lo they proved to be winners. This is why there is now a New Labour party in Parliament and a Labour party in the country.

In the US, the parties of old were a genuine battle for the middle/swing vote and thus were very similar. In the past couple of decades the distinction between the two has become very real.
Blame the Project for the New American Century - remember that? - and its determination to make the Republican Party the permanent party of government. There was to be no more "middle ground" nonsense.

The political plan has worked pretty well : the Republicans' problem is that they're just so crap at governing.
 
The evidence supports the conclusion he's an overt racist pretending his proverbial one black friend makes him not a racist.
Tyson is acceptable because he plays a traditional role in a macho arena. Was it Muhammad Ali who described boxing as "A bunch of rich white guys watching two black guys beat each other up"?
 
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We watched the national debt more than double under Obama, to about $20 trillion. Is there a reason to suspect Hillary will rein in the exploding debt? Or will or continue it's geometric growth to perhaps $40 trillion while she crows about "cutting the deficit".

The US has been using debt-based growth since the 1980s, when trade went into deficit. That is no accounting trick; it's real debt. To pull it off, a massive consumer debt build-up over decades resulted. (Ignoring the dollar as trade currency for brevity.) A saner, but hardly panicked, approach to fair trade would be in good order; however, that means adjusting trade deals and rules, not wrecking entire frameworks.

Government deficit spending has also recently skyrocketed, although that is easier to bear over longer periods of time, especially if as a percent of GDP it remains low enough. What really went missing in all this was the other side of Keynesian economics: to run a government surplus during years of growth in order to have a war chest for recessions. When under Clinton the heavy trend of deficit spending under Reaganism and its children (supply side tax cuts = deficit) was reversed and there was, lo and behold, a budding surplus... it was given away to all the rich friends of the political parties, both of them. No war chest for when the second massive bubble from Reagan deregulation burst, bigtime (the first was the S&L crisis in the 1980s, yuuuge).


ETA: To be more on topic: Trump is toxic in light of the above. Like bombing a hospital to clear up the waiting lines.

Tax cuts and deregulation. One has led to increasing deficits by simple math, the other by creating such massive economic destruction that the bailouts created equally massive deficits. Thank you very much, both parties, but especially the supply-side, govt-is-a-distortion model-gazers. Good lord, save us from mythical thinking.

We've watched around 400,000 Syrians die with whatever our course is in that country. If Hillary continues on the same course, is 800,000 dead Syrians a few years from now acceptable?

Bush's Iraq II? But most importantly, the lesson is that the wars in the region are fueled by Islam meeting the modern world and not being able to adapt, plus infighting over religious purity. Or seen from another light: this is the first time that the nation-states set up by European powers after WWI have been tested, the borders redrawn. Best let those countries themselves deal with it; the US can only become a 'crusader' in local eyes by being active militarily. Why more blood for oil when the US has enough resources to be independent? Texas-Bush-Cheney-Haliburton-Saudis-Oil, maybe?

Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid and Obamacare are becoming a larger and larger problem, and together with exploding debt could figuratively bankrupt the country without some steps being taken. Will we be happy with 4 or 8 more years of Democratic "whistling past the graveyard" and the eventual collapse or severe curtailment of these programs?

Granted, no one is on the ball entirely. Were they, they would be redesigning the whole kit and kaboodle to be a guaranteed minimum income (GMI) system, with vastly less bureaucracy. There is a real labor surplus/dearth of quality positions, and will be in the foreseeable future, and a GMI is structurally the only sane approach. That, and maybe investing in large infrastructure projects buttressing city shore lines against rising oceans.

I'm NOT blindly assuming the Republicans could do a better job, nor that Trump has any articulable plans to deal with the above. Just that some Trump supporters see him as an alternative to a dystopian future that the envision Hillary leading them into. Which, in my book, perhaps makes them misguided - but hardly deserving of the invective heaped upon them by some here.

Any dystopian future certainly will be accelerated by creating Maginot lines and understanding the 21st century as a fancied-up early 20th. Time to get real, and that is a criticism of both candidates, and of today's electorate most of all.

Been sticking that head in the sand since Reagan, ignoring that any dreams of "greatness" were undermined in 1980, when cash flows from international trade turned permanently negative - military parades, dot.com booms, financial wizardry and yacht races notwithstanding. The real economic war is a cash flow war, and China has been winning for a very, very long time. The rest is bling and bragging rights.
 
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That may be a good description of Trump. He's utterly amoral. His sense of right and wrong is limited to what's right for The Donald.

He certainly seems amoral. I've no idea whether he really is racist or not, but I've very little evidence that he has any opinions at all, aside from those which happen to be useful to his self-interest at the moment.

I don't think most of his supporters are necessarily racist or deplorable. They are, however, gullible.

Agreed.
 
In my view, a person who implements racist policies is the epitome of a racist.

I think that racism is about one's beliefs regarding (intrinsic) properties of the races.

If I believe that it is profitable to discriminate because those around me are racist, and I do so on that basis, I don't think I'm a racist. I'm certainly not a good person, of course, because I'm profiting by mistreating minorities, but I don't see that as racist.

Racism is about beliefs and opinions primarily, and behavior is only a crude way of determining beliefs and opinions.
 
Do either of you recognize that you are basically soul mates. You live in a blinkered, black-and-white world that bears at most a passing linkage to reality. You both have abandoned nuance for bravado. Thinking for gut reaction. Reality for fantasy.

I say "Bah!" on everyone who succumbs to such simplistic thinking.

ANd they are both like Donald Trump in that regard.....
 
Well, he's not quite Jones, but he's a lot closer than Clinton, yes.

But many Trump supporters deeply dislike Trump (and racism) but still think that a Clinton presidency would be more harmful to the nation. Obviously, I do not agree, but my point is merely that such persons are not "okay with racism".

This. I think are a bit delusional in that they think that somehow The GOP can "control" Trump if President,(they are sticking with the fantasy that somehow Pence would be the real power,playing Warwick the Kingmaker ) but I not willing to call them evil or total idiots.
 
Things were a lot different in New York forty years ago. The Trump family did not invent segregated housing. Back then one of the first things people asked about a neighborhood was, "Is it white?" If you wanted to attract middle-class tenants to your building you had to practice racial segregation. The vast majority of middle-class families would not move into an building that was racially mixed. But times change. When I was a kid all the black kids I knew lived on streets that were all-black. All the white kids (like me) lived on blocks that were all-white. Things are radically different today. My block is thoroughly diversified. The family on my left is black. (They rent; the owner is Arab.) On my right, Portuguese. Across the street is a retired white cop. Next door to him is a Hispanic family.

But is that it? I'm certain Trump properties are not accused of discriminating on the basis of race today. Heck Trump wanted to have Mike Tyson speak at the Republican Convention. (He was talked out of it.)

He also wanted Don King to speak;which would have been a first:A convicted Murderer speaking at a major party convention.
 
I believe in Ye Olden Days the parties actually stood for something very distinct in England and it was a clear choice to vote for the MP of that party. In the last couple of decades, they're kinda boring and homogenized. Tony Blair was Labour?

In the US, the parties of old were a genuine battle for the middle/swing vote and thus were very similar. In the past couple of decades the distinction between the two has become very real.

Which leaves the centrists in both parties in a bad situation. They still have a strong voice in the Democratic Party, but have been pretty much frozen out in the GOP. If and when the more hardline left in the Democratic Party takes control,and freezes out the centrists, we will have a real political crisis in the US,and possibly, finally, a viable third party emerging.
 
I think that racism is about one's beliefs regarding (intrinsic) properties of the races.

If I believe that it is profitable to discriminate because those around me are racist, and I do so on that basis, I don't think I'm a racist. I'm certainly not a good person, of course, because I'm profiting by mistreating minorities, but I don't see that as racist.

Racism is about beliefs and opinions primarily, and behavior is only a crude way of determining beliefs and opinions.

It's a matter of definition, really.
I would call somebody who carries out racist policies for personal or political gain despicable,and his actions evil, not sure I would call him a racist because I think that is a matter of belief,although it just a technical issue;the actions are equally reprehensible if carried out as cynical policy or as a matter of belief.
For the record, I think Trump is more of a selfish opportunist then a out and out racist.
 
This. I think are a bit delusional in that they think that somehow The GOP can "control" Trump if President,(they are sticking with the fantasy that somehow Pence would be the real power,playing Warwick the Kingmaker ) but I not willing to call them evil or total idiots.

If Steve Bannon and the Nazi wing wins the GOP civil war that has started and we end up with Speaker of the House Gohmert. I reserve the right to call them idiots. They're playing with fire.
 
The US has been using debt-based growth since the 1980s, when trade went into deficit. That is no accounting trick; it's real debt. To pull it off, a massive consumer debt build-up over decades resulted. (Ignoring the dollar as trade currency for brevity.) A saner, but hardly panicked, approach to fair trade would be in good order; however, that means adjusting trade deals and rules, not wrecking entire frameworks.

Government deficit spending has also recently skyrocketed, although that is easier to bear over longer periods of time, especially if as a percent of GDP it remains low enough. What really went missing in all this was the other side of Keynesian economics: to run a government surplus during years of growth in order to have a war chest for recessions. When under Clinton the heavy trend of deficit spending under Reaganism and its children (supply side tax cuts = deficit) was reversed and there was, lo and behold, a budding surplus... it was given away to all the rich friends of the political parties, both of them. No war chest for when the second massive bubble from Reagan deregulation burst, bigtime (the first was the S&L crisis in the 1980s, yuuuge).


ETA: To be more on topic: Trump is toxic in light of the above. Like bombing a hospital to clear up the waiting lines.

Tax cuts and deregulation. One has led to increasing deficits by simple math, the other by creating such massive economic destruction that the bailouts created equally massive deficits. Thank you very much, both parties, but especially the supply-side, govt-is-a-distortion model-gazers. Good lord, save us from mythical thinking.



Bush's Iraq II? But most importantly, the lesson is that the wars in the region are fueled by Islam meeting the modern world and not being able to adapt, plus infighting over religious purity. Or seen from another light: this is the first time that the nation-states set up by European powers after WWI have been tested, the borders redrawn. Best let those countries themselves deal with it; the US can only become a 'crusader' in local eyes by being active militarily. Why more blood for oil when the US has enough resources to be independent? Texas-Bush-Cheney-Haliburton-Saudis-Oil, maybe?



Granted, no one is on the ball entirely. Were they, they would be redesigning the whole kit and kaboodle to be a guaranteed minimum income (GMI) system, with vastly less bureaucracy. There is a real labor surplus/dearth of quality positions, and will be in the foreseeable future, and a GMI is structurally the only sane approach. That, and maybe investing in large infrastructure projects buttressing city shore lines against rising oceans.



Any dystopian future certainly will be accelerated by creating Maginot lines and understanding the 21st century as a fancied-up early 20th. Time to get real, and that is a criticism of both candidates, and of today's electorate most of all.

Been sticking that head in the sand since Reagan, ignoring that any dreams of "greatness" were undermined in 1980, when cash flows from international trade turned permanently negative - military parades, dot.com booms, financial wizardry and yacht races notwithstanding. The real economic war is a cash flow war, and China has been winning for a very, very long time. The rest is bling and bragging rights.

I wish you Euros would remember one thing:If the US goes down,it will take Europe with it.
And I get the feeling you really do not like private enterprise very much.....
 
As we debate whether all Trump supporters are really scum or not, the New York Times has a good article about how things got out of hand at a Trump rally. Trump protesters went too far, attacking supporters.

I'll bet that a lot of those protesters thought that supporters are all scum, too. Of course, black-and-white thinking isn't to blame by itself. The madness of the crowd goes a long way, I'm sure, in explaining this terrible incident.

(NOTE: I am not saying that all the violence this season comes from the anti-Trump crowd. It seems they were largely to blame in this case, however, if the Times article is accurate.)
 
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If I believe that it is profitable to discriminate because those around me are racist, and I do so on that basis, I don't think I'm a racist.

Hmm. Let's try an experiment:

"If I believe that it is profitable to steal because those around me are thieves, and I do so on that basis, I don't think I'm a thief."

That doesn't look reasonable to me. You are what you do.
 
Hmm. Let's try an experiment:

"If I believe that it is profitable to steal because those around me are thieves, and I do so on that basis, I don't think I'm a thief."

That doesn't look reasonable to me. You are what you do.

Racism is a body of belief. A racist is one who has the appropriate beliefs.

Stealing is an act, and a thief is one who steals.

If I do everything a Christian does, including attend church, but do not believe in the tenets of Christianity (although I act consistently with them), then I am not a Christian. Why not? Because being a Christian has to do with belief.

Your analogy failed precisely because racism is an -ism, while thievery is not.
 
While I think that many of Trump's supporters are racists, I strongly believe it's a mistake to talk about them. Trump is the one blowing the dog whistle, Trump is the one running for President. The focus should be about him and what he says. I have many reasons I despise Trump. Hell, I despised him before I knew him to be a racist. Here are some of my reasons.

1. He's a liar....minor reason, but he is a non stop liar. There is just as much chance that the words out of his mouth at any given time are false than true.

2. He's a thief. YEP, he's a thief. No, he doesn't rob banks, but when he makes agreements with contractors and vendors with an understanding of a specific payment at a specific time and then after services are delivered refuses to pay unless he receives a discount it is a stick up. He's not using a gun, but it's stealing in my book.

3. He's a bully. It's might makes right or Money Rules.
4. He's self centered. This is obvious.
5. He whines. I'll give him credit. He has owned up to this. Still doesn't make it an admirable trait.
6. He is a racist. It's not just his words, it is his actions such as being sued for housing discrimination.
7. He's a sexist. In fact, he's an abominable sexist. I've never seen anyone in the last 40 years treat woman worse. He makes my father who used to regularly say "we'll if it was easy, they'd have women doing it" look like Gloria Steinem.
8. And most of all, Trump is un-American. I despise Trump for this most of all. He not only has no respect for things like the Bill of Rights, the Constitution or the rule of law. He threatens to imprison his political opponents and reporters and undermines the integrity of elections.

I have lots of policy differences with Trump and actually agree with him on some of his proposals. But the truth about hus policy proposals is that they cannot be trusted as I don't believe they matter to Trump. He just wants to be the boss of everybody.
 
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In my view, a person who implements racist policies is the epitome of a racist.

With respect I disagree. Given the scenario it was an economic decision not a racist one.

Another hypothetical: if I have a shop that serves food and my market has a fear of catching AIDS from a homosexual employee that they stop coming, my decision is based on saving my business, not homophobia. At least not on my part. To be coldly analytical, the market has spoken.

No one is arguing the moral aspect of discriminating against a group. Simply that it does necessarily make someone racist or homophobic in the true sense of the words.
 
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