Please, Please, Please Go To a Real Doctor

[Blue Wode]

Did you even read the article you posted a link to? It was a friend who said that and had nothing to back that CLAIM up.

I stand corrected, it was her friend who said that.

This is nothing more than something worse than she thought (reasonable to think, it would appear, except of course in hindsight) and unfortunately being wrong. Not her fault, not the chiropractor's.

But let's not let that stop the dog pile on the latter.

If the chiropractor manipulated her neck (which I understand is the main intervention that chiropractors use for neck pain), then he/she shouldn't have done so. Remember, chiropractors have no reliable methods to screen for all contraindications to neck manipulation.

IMO, if the chiropractor didn't actually cause the stroke, it's likely that he/she will be found to have exacerbated it.

 

[casebro]

I think a fall might tear one artery, but chiro could tear both?

Wait for autopsy results.

 

[Myriad]

Or investigated to find out why she was in pain in a timely manner? It does happen that way as well as the Eeyore Mode some folks like to put forward.

I suppose it does happen that way, sometime, somewhere. I'd like to see it happen someday. Never happened to me or any friend or relative of mine. My female relatives, especially, never have their pain taken seriously. A few years ago my mother had debilitating pain from a large kidney stone for over a month. The urology group mistakenly thought they'd ruled that out and wouldn't even see her again. Her GP and other specialists acted as if it were hypochondria or drug-seeking, until finally an orthopedist they'd turfed her off to went outside his specialty and ordered a kidney ultrasound. He probably saved her life, but it was too late to save a month of unnecessary agony because they thought she was exaggerating.

Investigated? "You fell. That explains your neck pain." (That might even have been the correct diagnosis, depending on whether the fatal event was caused by the fall or by the chiro manipulation.)

Ms. May's best chance of survival was probably avoiding the chiropractors, avoiding the real doctors equally, and resting up until it felt better.

 

[bigred]

I stand corrected, it was her friend who said that.

My main point was this is some nobody who likely has no medical background....some family/friend saying this means nothing in itself. It was irresponsible and just plain idiotic to "report" that (not that that's exactly unusual from our media) as if it did.

If the chiropractor manipulated her neck (which I understand is the main intervention that chiropractors use for neck pain), then he/she shouldn't have done so.

Someone complains of neck pain and he shouldn't manipulate her neck? Again that's easy to say in hindsight. It has no bases to stand on otherwise.

Remember, chiropractors have no reliable methods to screen for all contraindications to neck manipulation.

Since when does any doctor have the ability or even desire to take every single possibility into account in most cases, esp with something as simple and vague as neck pain?

If this becomes a witch hunt for the chiro, it's a joke. A very sad one.

 

[BenBurch]

We need to ban chiropractic.

 

[bigred]

 

[mikado]

I don't like chiropractic as such, but I have a pinched nerve in my neck. I could get no relief apart from medication from my excellent real doctor and my pysio apart from telling me to consciously relax my shoulders could do nothing... I, in sheer desperation went to the local bone cruncher. it's the only thing that has given me relief from the pain, and constant pins and needles.
I don't accept the premise that it claims to be based on, but IN THIS ONE CASE, it's given me relief when nothing else did. Even if it's placebo, in the end I don't really care...

 

[Minoosh]

I'd like to know what caused the fall in the first place. If it was a transient ischemic attack it might be easy for a young, healthy (?) woman to write it off as an aberration - dizziness or some such.

 

[Trebuchet]

I'd like to know what caused the fall in the first place. If it was a transient ischemic attack it might be easy for a young, healthy (?) woman to write it off as an aberration - dizziness or some such.

Or being asked to hold an unnatural pose while in an anorectic state.

When my wife was having neck pain her doctor referred her to a chiropractor. Who told her to stop taking a medication she depended on for her very life, because "I can cure that."

She went back to the MD and told him what happened, then was present while he called the Chiro and told him off. She said it was woundrous to hear. My dad had a similar experience.

 

[BenBurch]

Or being asked to hold an unnatural pose while in an anorectic state.

When my wife was having neck pain her doctor referred her to a chiropractor. Who told her to stop taking a medication she depended on for her very life, because "I can cure that."

She went back to the MD and told him what happened, then was present while he called the Chiro and told him off. She said it was woundrous to hear. My dad had a similar experience.

She was thin but not in any obvious way starved.

 

[marplots]

I don't like chiropractic as such, but I have a pinched nerve in my neck. I could get no relief apart from medication from my excellent real doctor and my pysio apart from telling me to consciously relax my shoulders could do nothing... I, in sheer desperation went to the local bone cruncher. it's the only thing that has given me relief from the pain, and constant pins and needles.
I don't accept the premise that it claims to be based on, but IN THIS ONE CASE, it's given me relief when nothing else did. Even if it's placebo, in the end I don't really care...

Please don't get a stroke.

 

[Blue Wode]

A sensible blog post on this topic has just been published:

Her two sessions of chiropractic manipulation might well have either worsened an existing intimal tear or caused a new one that lead to her demise. Or they might have had nothing to do with her stroke, her fate having been sealed days before, when she fell during that photoshoot. There is just no way of knowing for sure, and it is not wrong to suspect that chiropractic neck manipulation might have contributed to Katie May’s demise.

[My bold]

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2...pulation-of-her-neck-cause-katie-mays-stroke/

 

[aleCcowaN]

I'd say there is:
http://www.ebm-first.com/component/finder/search.html?q=carotid&Itemid=140

Then bring people who can.

 

[Camillus]

On a point of information her symptoms don't really fit carotid artery injury. They are more likely to have been caused by dissection of the vertebral artery. Indeed that is why, in the blog post linked above, the writer refers to VA injury.

The list of things that can cause VA injury is quite extensive, and not really helpful, except to demonstrate that either the fall or the manipulation could have been responsible (or the manipulation could have worsened an injury from the fall).

 

[Blue Wode]

Update:

Playboy model Katie May died as the result of visiting a chiropractor for an adjustment, which ultimately left her with a fatal tear to an artery in her neck ... according to the L.A. County Coroner.

TMZ obtained a copy of Katie's death certificate, and it clears up a huge mystery surrounding her sudden death in February. The document says she died when a blunt force injury tore her left vertebral artery, and cut off blood flow to her brain.

It also says the injury was sustained during a "neck manipulation by chiropractor." Her death is listed as accidental.

As TMZ first reported, Katie -- known as the "Queen of Snapchat" -- had taken a nasty fall during a photo shoot. She thought she had a pinched nerve and went to an L.A. chiropractor on Friday. She suffered a stroke on Monday, and remained on life support until Thursday.

Katie's family is aware of the coroner's findings. They would not comment on whether they or her estate would pursue legal action.

Link: http://www.tmz.com/2016/10/19/model-katie-may-chiropractor-cause-of-death/

Her death, being listed as 'accidental', has similarities to this case:
http://www.chirobase.org/15News/lewis.html

 

[ponderingturtle]

It is my understanding she fell and injured her neck. She went to the hospital and the hospital released her with a diagnosis of a pinched nerve. Then she went to the chiropractor a couple times in later days for treatment of that pinched nerve... an "adjustment" which apparently didn't help. So she went back to the hospital Monday and had a stroke on Monday. I am unclear if the stroke was before or after entering the hospital the second time. Do you have a source? Then she died on Thursday about a week after the original fall.

Sounds like everybody did their best but it was one of those freak accidents that is hard to diagnose.

Odd how many of those freak strokes happen after chiropractic adjustment. Statistically significant though.

 

[Blue Wode]

Odd how many of those freak strokes happen after chiropractic adjustment. Statistically significant though.

I agree. Interestingly, the story is international news now, and three MDs have blogged on it in the last 24 hours...

David Gorski
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2...-neck-did-cause-katie-mays-death-from-stroke/

Steven Novella
http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/chiropractic-and-strokes/

Edzard Ernst
http://edzardernst.com/2016/10/top-model-died-as-a-result-of-visiting-a-chiropractor/

Given that there are no reliable methods available to screen for patients who might be predisposed to suffering a vertebrobasilar artery dissection resulting from neck manipulation, it might be time to ban the procedure.

 

[fuelair]

Did you even read the article you posted a link to? It was a friend who said that and had nothing to back that CLAIM up.


Key point.

Yeah folks, it's the chiropractor's fault she went to him for neck pain instead of a "real doctor."

This is nothing more than something worse than she thought (reasonable to think, it would appear, except of course in hindsight) and unfortunately being wrong. Not her fault, not the chiropractor's.

But let's not let that stop the dog pile on the latter.

No offense, but any time something happens that might put one of those charlatans out of business I have trouble being unhappy about it. Chiropractic needs to be made illegal in the US!!!

 

[Joey McGee]

Ms. May's best chance of survival was probably avoiding the chiropractors, avoiding the real doctors equally, and resting up until it felt better.

The nonsense being perpetrated in this thread is truly depressing, this one took the cake. This is literally one of the stupidest statements it is possible to make, and from a moderator at the skeptics forum? The ****... From a law blog?

"Are medical errors really the third most common cause of death in the U.S.?"

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.or...-third-most-common-cause-of-death-in-the-u-s/

if Makary’s estimates are correct, 35% of all hospital deaths are due to medical errors. On its face, such a claim is very hard to believe, especially if you consider that, of those who died in a hospital, 75% were age 65 and over, and 27% were age 85 and over. That’s a lot of people prone to dying because they are old and ill, regardless of how good their care was. Add to that the fact that between 2000 and 2010, hospital deaths decreased 8% even though the number of hospitalizations increased 11%, and Makary’s numbers become less and less credible.

Here are some other things I know. I know that the risk of death and complications is a fairly meaningless number unless weighed against the benefits of medical care, a point that Harriet Hall made long ago, noting for example that an “an insulin reaction counts as an adverse drug reaction, but if the patient weren’t taking insulin he probably wouldn’t be alive to have a reaction.”

All the people coming to bat for chiro here, did you really think this one through and do research? Really you don't care if it's a placebo and some exercise and stretching could help you better? Christ...

 

[calebprime]

Actually, that's useful, Joey M., because that changed my mind. I was one of those people who went around mindlessly repeating that "third most common cause of death" idea.