Bob Dylan awarded Nobel prize for Literature

[Ian Osborne]

I wonder who's next? Suzanne Vega? Neil Young?

 

[Trebuchet]

I wonder who's next? Suzanne Vega? Neil Young?

Hey, you can't get more profound than "A Man Needs a Maid"!

 

[bytewizard]

I just heard on the radio that the Nobel Prize committee has left messages and sent emails to Dylan, and thus far he has not responded. Maybe Bob doesn't want or need the money, or might not want the award, and may be a no show at the award ceremony. If true, did someone come in second place? Do they get the 1.2 million?

 

[TomB]

I'm not a great songwriter/lyricist (complete amateur...doing it for my own amusement), and I'm not particularly a Dylan fan. But in my experience, some of what I consider to be my best lyrics are not particularly coherent and don't follow a straight line narrative. This is because what they convey is less a story than a mood. Which is why the analogy to abstract or impressionist art is so good.

Like I said, I'm not really a Dylan fan. I don't own any of his albums and I'm only familiar with the surface of his catalog. But Tangled Up in Blue is a song I have always loved. The point is less about the story, but the mood that he communicates. Is it the lyrics, the music, or his voice? I don't think you can really separate them. Songwriting is lyrics and music. It's more than just putting poetry to music.

Is songwriting literature? I don't know, and I really don't care. Awards for artistic pursuits are pretty subjective and whatever the choice some will think someone else was more deserving.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

As is everyone's.

Alternatively, you could choose to view this fact as indicating that it could be communicating ANYTHING, and that the message varies depending on the listener. Which if you think about it is true for all art.

If you don't get anything useful from it, that's fine. But just because it doesn't mean anything to you doesn't mean it doesn't mean anything to anybody.

But the communication is one-way. Because the words can mean anything, even if they move me, they tell me nothing about Dylan or why he wrote them. I cannot relate back to him or his context. The two-way relationship between artist and audience is to me the fundamental goal of creative processes. The artistic expression tells the audience something about themselves; in contextualizing it they learn about the artist and their vision.

I'm lot saying this is a universally held view as a requirement on good art, but it is mine.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

I'm not saying I hate Dylan. For example, I kind of enjoy "All along the Watchtower", but the title and the line it occurs in are still unparseable.

 

[arthwollipot]

But the communication is one-way. Because the words can mean anything, even if they move me, they tell me nothing about Dylan or why he wrote them. I cannot relate back to him or his context. The two-way relationship between artist and audience is to me the fundamental goal of creative processes. The artistic expression tells the audience something about themselves; in contextualizing it they learn about the artist and their vision.

I'm lot saying this is a universally held view as a requirement on good art, but it is mine.

Pardon me for saying this, but that's... weird.

Do you have the same two-way relationship with the artist when you view a painting or a stained-glass window?

 

[calebprime]

I promise this won't be my best effort.

There must be some way out of here
Said the joker to the thief
There's too much confusion, I can't get no relief
Businessmen, they drink my wine
Plowmen dig my earth
None of them along the line know what any of it is worth
No reason to get excited, the thief, he kindly spoke
There are many here among us who feel that life is but a joke
But you and I, we've been through that, and this is not our fate
So let us not talk falsely now, the hour is getting late
All along the watchtower, princes kept the view
While all the women came and went, barefoot servants, too
Outside in the distance a wildcat did growl
Two riders were approaching, the wind began to howl

You have an embattled minority -- the privileged few inside the watchtower. Are they the bastions of civilization, or an elite that deserves to perish?

We hear not from the princes and the pundits in the castle, but overhear a joker talking to a thief -- and they're ironically having the most lordly conversation.

The princes may be "keeping the view" -- guarding the ramparts -- but we see things not from their perspective, but first from the underlings, the local parasites. And then, the scope broadens, and we're made aware of the wider world encroaching.

Outside there's only implacable feriocious nature, the cold wind and hard rain,
and some apocalyptic riders approaching. "The hour is getting late."

All of a piece with other 60's imagery.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Pardon me for saying this, but that's... weird.

Do you have the same two-way relationship with the artist when you view a painting or a stained-glass window?

Yes.

I promise this won't be my best effort.






You have an embattled minority -- the privileged few inside the watchtower. Are they the bastions of civilization, or an elite that deserves to perish?

We hear not from the princes and the pundits in the castle, but overhear a joker talking to a thief -- and they're ironically having the most lordly conversation.

The princes may be "keeping the view" -- guarding the ramparts -- but we see things not from their perspective, but first from the underlings, the local parasites. And then, the scope broadens, and we're made aware of the wider world encroaching.

Outside there's only implacable feriocious nature, the cold wind and hard rain,
and some apocalyptic riders approaching. "The hour is getting late."

All of a piece with other 60's imagery.

I was referring to a specific line: a watchtower is not a road or a path, and you don't really do things along it.

I think the bit about princes in the watchtower is some biblical imagery or something.

The most well-known feature of the piece is its feeling of unfinishedness - it's just a setup; there just isn't enough material there to really justify an interpretation. Many Dylan fans take this as brilliance - I take it as Dylan not even trying anymore, knowing the fans would take it on faith.

 

[Resume]

I promise this won't be my best effort.






You have an embattled minority -- the privileged few inside the watchtower. Are they the bastions of civilization, or an elite that deserves to perish?

We hear not from the princes and the pundits in the castle, but overhear a joker talking to a thief -- and they're ironically having the most lordly conversation.

The princes may be "keeping the view" -- guarding the ramparts -- but we see things not from their perspective, but first from the underlings, the local parasites. And then, the scope broadens, and we're made aware of the wider world encroaching.

Outside there's only implacable feriocious nature, the cold wind and hard rain,
and some apocalyptic riders approaching. "The hour is getting late."

All of a piece with other 60's imagery.

This is pretty good. Personal symbols in literature, especially poetry, are as common as signature licks in popular music, though then latter are far easier to recognize. I do not find the pseudo-biblical, slightly ambiguous peripeteia particularly unsatisfying, as much literature is often open ended, leaving some responsibility with the audience. "The hour is getting late" should be compass enough.

 

[angrysoba]

Yes.


I was referring to a specific line: a watchtower is not a road or a path, and you don't really do things along it.

I think the bit about princes in the watchtower is some biblical imagery or something.

The most well-known feature of the piece is its feeling of unfinishedness - it's just a setup; there just isn't enough material there to really justify an interpretation. Many Dylan fans take this as brilliance - I take it as Dylan not even trying anymore, knowing the fans would take it on faith.

I decided to investigate further. This is as far as I have got:

 

[Porpoise of Life]

I decided to investigate further. This is as far as I have got:

Boob Dylan

 

[angrysoba]

Boob Dylan

Maybe, this is what I was supposed to have posted. Although it is not that convincing, as far as I am concerned. The commentator does not take up TubbaBlubba's complaint that watchtower's do not have much lateral extension. However, looking at some old fashioned watch towers on Google, I think it is possible that a watchtower made from stone may be large enough in circumference for people to be said to be distributed along it. I think along the battlements would make more sense though.

 

[calebprime]

I decided to investigate further. This is as far as I have got:

Heh. She's actually pretty good, except she's playing the original Hendrix leads note-for-note, but too quickly and rote, because she's at that point not hearing the backing structure, or something. But she actually plays workable rhythm, and is solid (but again rote) with some fills -- again rushes others a bit as if just trying to get through them. Can she lock in with a band? She sings in tune.

Her left-right coordination is good.

Also, her breasts are large, which I don't care about. I like 'em pretty, with hairy legs.

 

[angrysoba]

Heh. She's actually pretty good, except she's playing the original Hendrix leads note-for-note, but too quickly and rote, because she's at that point not hearing the backing structure, or something. But she actually plays workable rhythm, and is solid (but again rote) with some fills -- again rushes others a bit as if just trying to get through them. Can she lock in with a band? She sings in tune.

Her left-right coordination is good.

Also, her breasts are large, which I don't care about. I like 'em pretty, with hairy legs.

Yeah, certainly the thing I noticed most of all was the fact she was playing it Hendrix.

I agree, she sings well, but she has a few awkward transitions in the playing.

But how about back to Dylan:

 

[angrysoba]

By the way, I think this is a good place to link to Christopher Hitchens's review of an academic's book on Bob Dylan.

He has a rather TubbaBlubba-esque objection to an iconic line in an iconic song of Bob's:

I used to play two subliterary games with Salman Rushdie. The first, not that you asked, was to re-title Shakespeare plays as if they had been written by Robert Ludlum. (Rushdie, who invented the game, came up with The Elsinore Vacillation, The Dunsinane Reforestation, The Kerchief Implication, and The Rialto Sanction.) The second was to recite Bob Dylan songs in a deadpan voice as though they were blank verse. In addition to the risk of the ridiculous, it can become quite hypnotic. Try it yourself with "Mr. Tambourine Man": It works so well, you hardly care that a tambourine man can't really be playing a song. "Lily, Rosemary and The Jack of Hearts," "Chimes of Freedom," and "Desolation Row" all have the same feeling.

The piece is called America's Poet?

 

[TomB]

Yeah, certainly the thing I noticed most of all was the fact she was playing it Hendrix.

I agree, she sings well, but she has a few awkward transitions in the playing.

The transition awkwardness, I think, is the result of playing the lead parts with no backing. It's both hard to play leads without another part as a time reference and hard to listen to without the rhythm section to put the lead into context.

She's got a lot of videos up going back several years. A lot of Hendrix. She's actually pretty good and has a great voice, but I don't think she plays professionally. (Studied finance, apparently.) I think on some of the covers she might be wearing earphones which helps with the timing thing.

Anyway, back to Dylan. Some of his songs can be hard to parse, but not impossible. And yes, you can get multiple interpretations. But this is true of most literature that doesn't beat you over the head with its message. Good literature is generally not so clear. It requires the audience to fill in the gaps. If you are too direct, it becomes less interesting as the reader/audience doesn't have to think about it.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Anyway, back to Dylan. Some of his songs can be hard to parse, but not impossible. And yes, you can get multiple interpretations. But this is true of most literature that doesn't beat you over the head with its message. Good literature is generally not so clear. It requires the audience to fill in the gaps. If you are too direct, it becomes less interesting as the reader/audience doesn't have to think about it.

I'm absolutely not saying that all creative works need to have everything laid out clear, but rather that there needs to be a two-way line of communication between the artist and the reader. The sum of themes, settings, details, language, etc needs to add up to something that tells me something about myself and something about the artist.

Sometimes clarity and detail can diminish, of course. To take a pop-cultural example as is usually apt, in the original Star Wars trilogy we know little about the Emperor - except that he's a dictator and a mighty warlock. Thematically, his role is clear enough - he's the Devil himself and his destruction signifies the overcoming and rejection of evil by Anakin. If he has een in power for 20 or 2000 years, of royal blood or a military man - it is all irrelevant to the important thematic role he plays.

In the prequels, he is Adolf Caesar Napoleon Augustus whatever and though we have more detail, I find that character pretty bland. But anyway, the added detail doesn't improve in itself, it all depends on context, theme, etc.

I don't think All Along the Watchtower is Dylan's worst work by far, but I think it is the epitome of laziness, and not stopping to think, or caring, if the title even makes sense is such a clear indicator. With a bit more work I think it could have been quite a good poem. Work Dylan did not bother to put in, of course.

Now, don't get me started on Desolation Row or Ballad of a Thin Man...

 

[Porpoise of Life]

For a (relatively) straightforward, narrative Dylan song with clear-cut symbolism:
Lily Rosemary and the Jack of Hearts:

The festival was over and the boys were all plannin' for a fall
The cabaret was quiet except for the drillin' in the wall

The curfew had been lifted and the gamblin' wheel shut down
Anyone with any sense had already left town
He was standin' in the doorway lookin' like the Jack of Hearts

He moved across the mirrored room, "Set it up for everyone" he said
Then everyone commenced to do what they were doin'
Before he turned their heads

Then he walked up to a stranger and he asked him with a grin
"Could you kindly tell me, friend, what time the show begins?"
Then he moved into the corner, face down like the Jack of Hearts

Backstage the girls were playin' five-card stud by the stairs
Lily had two queens, she was hopin' for a third to match her pair

Outside the streets were fillin' up, the window was open wide
A gentle breeze was blowin', you could feel it from inside
Lily called another bet and drew up the Jack of Hearts

Big Jim was no one's fool, he owned the town's only diamond mine
He made his usual entrance lookin' so dandy and so fine

With his bodyguards and silver cane and every hair in place
He took whatever he wanted to and he laid it all to waste
But his bodyguards and silver cane were no match for the Jack of Hearts

Rosemary combed her hair and took a carriage into town
She slipped in through the side door lookin' like a queen without a crown

She fluttered her false eyelashes and whispered in his ear
"Sorry, darlin', that I'm late" but he didn't seem to hear
He was starin' into space over at the Jack of Hearts

"I know I've seen that face before, " Big Jim was thinkin' to himself
"Maybe down in Mexico or a picture up on somebody's shelf

But then the crowd began to stamp their feet and the house lights did dim
And in the darkness of the room there was only Jim and him
Starin' at the butterfly who just drew the Jack of Hearts

Lily was a princess, she was fair-skinned and precious as a child
She did whatever she had to do
She had that certain flash every time she smiled

She'd come away from a broken home, had lots of strange affairs
With men in every walk of life which took her everywhere
But she'd never met anyone quite like the Jack of Hearts

The hangin' judge came in unnoticed and was being wined and dined
The drillin' in the wall kept up but no one seemed to pay it any mind

It was known all around that Lily had Jim's ring
And nothing would ever come between Lily and the king
No, nothin' ever would except maybe the Jack of Hearts

Rosemary started drinkin' hard and seein' her reflection in the knife
She was tired of the attention, tired of playin' the role of Big Jim's wife

She had done a lot of bad things, even once tried suicide
Was lookin' to do just one good deed before she died
She was gazin' to the future, riding on the Jack of Hearts

Lily took her dress off, buried it away
"Has your luck run out?" she laughed at him
"Well, I guess you must have known it would someday"

"Be careful not to touch the wall, there's a brand-new coat of paint
I'm glad to see you're still alive, you're lookin' like a saint"
Down the hallway footsteps were comin' for the Jack of Hearts

The backstage manager was pacing all around by his chair
"There's something funny going on" he said
"I can just feel it in the air"

He went to get the hangin' judge, but the hangin' judge was drunk
As the leading actor hurried by in the costume of a monk
There was no actor anywhere better than the Jack of Hearts

No one knew the circumstance
But they say that it happened pretty quick
The door to the dressing room burst open and a cold revolver clicked

And Big Jim was standin' there, ya couldn't say surprised
Rosemary right beside him, steady in her eyes
She was with Big Jim but she was leanin' to the Jack of Hearts

Two doors down, the boys finally made it through the wall
And cleaned out the bank safe
It's said that they got off with quite a haul

In the darkness by the riverbed they waited on the ground
For one more member who had business back in town
But they couldn't go no further without the Jack of Hearts

The next day was hangin' day, the sky was overcast and black
Big Jim lay covered up, killed by a penknife in the back

And Rosemary on the gallows, she didn't even blink
The hangin' judge was sober, he hadn't had a drink
The only person on the scene missin' was the Jack of Hearts

The cabaret was empty now, a sign said, "Closed for repair"
Lily had already taken all of the dye out of her hair

She was thinkin' 'bout her father, who she very rarely saw
Thinkin' 'bout Rosemary and thinkin' about the law
But most of all she was thinkin' 'bout the Jack of Hearts

 

[KatieG]

Whatever one may say of Dylan, Leonard Cohen is a greater poet by any measure.

Absolutely agree with this!