JFK Conspiracy Theories IV: The One With The Whales

[BStrong]

I mean, just imagine if the projectile hit a curved object like a skull, at a tangentile angle because the person was leaning forwards slightly...

A friend of mine survived a AK caliber (7.62 x 39mm) headshot.

He was running downhill and because of the angle the round was fired from and the shape of his skull the round impacted and cut a groove in his skull rather than penetrating.

That was for sure no circular hole.

 

[traxy]

Let's say for a moment that the damage to John Kennedy is consistent with anything Oswald could have done. Can you propose a shooting sequence?

First shot fired around Zapruder frame 160. Misses the vehicle completely, causes the nick in the curb next to James Tague.

Second shot fired at Zapruder frame 223, hits Kennedy in the upper back, exits out of his neck at a downward trajectory and starts to tumble. Hits Connally in the back near the armpit, causing his elliptical entry wound. While tumbling through his body, it impacts his rib sideways causing the round to flatten out at the base. It blasts out of his chest, hits his wrist, then his thigh.

Third shot fired at Zapruder frame 313. Hits Kennedy in the back of the head above and to the right of the EOP. The bullet blasts out the right side of his head and splits, with one large piece impacting the inside of the windshield and another large piece denting the chrome moulding.

 

[MicahJava]

Did you learn the bolded from "the worlds best snipers?"

The primary difference between a wound caused by a subsonic projectile and a supersonic projectile is depth of penetration, not the shape of the entry/exit wound.

If you have evidence that any small arms projectile "always create circular bullet holes" I'd be very interested in seeing it.

With the circumstances in Dealey Plaza, an entry wound in the head from the Carcano would be circular. There was no tangentile angle sharp enough. In this situation, such an oval entry wound is definitely evidence of subsonic ammunition. Elliptical entry wounds were more commonly seen with old guns in war time. This is why so many people want the red spot on the BOH photos to be the real entry wound.

Just look at the common LN arguments for the oval shape of Connally's back wound, where people like Bugliosi really lay it on thick and say the shape of the wound is "proof" he was hit by a tumbling bullet.

 

[MicahJava]

First shot fired around Zapruder frame 160. Misses the vehicle completely, causes the nick in the curb next to James Tague.

Okay, let's stop there. I can find very little evidence for a loud shot before 190-224. The film blurs slightly (as it does at other random times), Connally's head turns to the right kind of fast and Rosemary Willis slows down (Phillip Willis said he might've called out to her). I think that's about it, this could all amount to coincidence.

Just count the number of witnesses specifically said Kennedy reacted to the first shot, describing sometimes similar to the 190-224+ reactions, or said the limousine slowed after the first shot. I think a lot of witness statements are being misinterpreted to make this first missed shot exist. There are no witnesses who say that Kennedy was smiling and waving after the first report. James Tague always swore that he perceived being nicked in the cheek at the time of the second or third shot.

 

[BStrong]

With the circumstances in Dealey Plaza, an entry wound in the head from the Carcano would be circular. There was no tangentile angle sharp enough. In this situation, such an oval entry wound is definitely evidence of subsonic ammunition. Elliptical entry wounds were more commonly seen with old guns in war time. This is why so many people want the red spot on the BOH photos to be the real entry wound.

Just look at the common LN arguments for the oval shape of Connally's back wound, where people like Bugliosi really lay it on thick and say the shape of the wound is "proof" he was hit by a tumbling bullet.

I'm waiting for some actual evidence to support your assertions.

For folks interested in the subject matter:

http://what-when-how.com/forensic-sciences/evaluation-of-gunshot-wounds/

http://www.archivesofpathology.org/doi/pdf/10.1043/1543-2165(2006)130[1283:PPOGW]2.0.CO;2
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/files/chapter12.pdf

From the above link:

Typical entrance wounds are ordinarily round in shape with a circumferential margin of abrasion surrounding the defect produced by the bullet (Figure 1, A and B).4 The margin of abrasion is a scraping or scuffing of the skin caused by the bullet as it pushes inward. The margin of abrasion may be concentric or eccentric. When a bullet penetrates the skin nose on, it produces a concentric margin of abrasion—that is, a ring of scraped skin of uniform thickness—because it enters perpendicular to the skin. When the nose of a bullet penetrates the skin at an angle, it produces an eccentric margin of abrasion, that is, a ring that is thicker in 1 area. The thick area of an eccentric margin of abrasion indicates the direction from which the bullet came. In addition, the thicker the margin the shallower the angle of the bullet was as it struck the skin

An elliptical entrance wound is typically the result fn the angle of the projectile's penetration, not the velocity of the projectile.

 

[Axxman300]

With the circumstances in Dealey Plaza, an entry wound in the head from the Carcano would be circular. There was no tangentile angle sharp enough. In this situation, such an oval entry wound is definitely evidence of subsonic ammunition. Elliptical entry wounds were more commonly seen with old guns in war time. This is why so many people want the red spot on the BOH photos to be the real entry wound.

Just look at the common LN arguments for the oval shape of Connally's back wound, where people like Bugliosi really lay it on thick and say the shape of the wound is "proof" he was hit by a tumbling bullet.

And here you go arguing ballistics again.

The 6.5×52mm round was proprietary to the Carcano. The rifling on the recovered bullets show that they were fired from a Carcano. The rifle has a gain twist of 1:8" compared to the M-16A2's 1:7", and the full metal jacket, and 160 grains in the shell load gave Oswald a small canon that fired a round moving at 2,700 fps. Simply put, the Carcano was twice as powerful as it's .306 cousins.

The 6.5×52mm round Oswald used penetrates 4 feet of ponderosa pine and 2 feet of elm wood, and emerge undamaged. (Nichols & Lattimer).

So...

It's going to make a nice ROUND hole on entry, and because the round is over-stabilized they cavitate inside the body like a buzz saw, which is why Kennedy's head exploded. The throat wound gave little resistance to that bullet, but it was still cavitating between JFK and Connally, causing the crazy amount of damage to his body.

This is the part you and every JFK Cter ignore:

In 1963, and even today, there is NOT A LOT OF FORENSIC DATA on the 6.5×52mm round because it is so rare. This means that the FBI and DPD had to start from scratch with this part of the investigation because there was nothing to compare to. This means you can't discuss Kennedy's wounds in general terms because general terms do not apply with the Carcano round.

The 6.5×52mm Carcano round that Oswald used was unique in every way. No other rifle has the capability of replicating the damage seen in Dallas. This is why you can find no conspiracy by looking at the shooting in Dealey Plaza - one rifle, and only one rifle could perform the work done that day.

 

[traxy]

Okay, let's stop there. I can find very little evidence for a loud shot before 190-224. The film blurs slightly (as it does at other random times), Connally's head turns to the right kind of fast and Rosemary Willis slows down (Phillip Willis said he might've called out to her). I think that's about it, this could all amount to coincidence

Connally said the turn to the right at frame 160 was a reaction to hearing gunfire.

Rosemary Willis said she stopped running because she heard gunfire.

Jackie Kennedy looks sharply at her husband around this time as well.

Other witnesses said the first shot was a miss too.

 

[MicahJava]

I'm waiting for some actual evidence to support your assertions.

For folks interested in the subject matter:

http://what-when-how.com/forensic-sciences/evaluation-of-gunshot-wounds/

http://www.archivesofpathology.org/doi/pdf/10.1043/1543-2165(2006)130[1283:PPOGW]2.0.CO;2
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/files/chapter12.pdf

From the above link:

Typical entrance wounds are ordinarily round in shape with a circumferential margin of abrasion surrounding the defect produced by the bullet (Figure 1, A and B).4 The margin of abrasion is a scraping or scuffing of the skin caused by the bullet as it pushes inward. The margin of abrasion may be concentric or eccentric. When a bullet penetrates the skin nose on, it produces a concentric margin of abrasion—that is, a ring of scraped skin of uniform thickness—because it enters perpendicular to the skin. When the nose of a bullet penetrates the skin at an angle, it produces an eccentric margin of abrasion, that is, a ring that is thicker in 1 area. The thick area of an eccentric margin of abrasion indicates the direction from which the bullet came. In addition, the thicker the margin the shallower the angle of the bullet was as it struck the skin

An elliptical entrance wound is typically the result fn the angle of the projectile's penetration, not the velocity of the projectile.

Instability and yawing of bullets can cause elliptical holes. I think the people here would have an easier time arguing that a missed shot after Z313 bounced off the pavement and managed to hit Kennedy low in the head while he was slumped over.

15x6mm is extremely oval.

 

[MicahJava]

Connally said the turn to the right at frame 160 was a reaction to hearing gunfire.

We've talked about Connally before. He marked on a map when he thought the shooting started, at about the z220's. He viewed the Z film and felt that the first loud shot he heard was at ~z190, and he was hit at ~231.

Rosemary Willis said she stopped running because she heard gunfire.

She was ten years old. She said this 16 years after the fact, at age 26.

She said she may have stopped when she heard gunfire.

She might have felt inclined to give an interesting answer to the magazine journalist who was interviewing her.

Phillip Willis told Gerald Posner that her reactions may have been from him calling out to her.

Alternatively, while she does stop running around the z170's, her subsequent rapid head turn could be interpreted as something consistent with a shot at ~190.

Jackie Kennedy looks sharply at her husband around this time as well.

Her head turns to the right slightly after the ~z160's, but only after z190 does her head turn right very fast.

Other witnesses said the first shot was a miss too.

Like who? We've talked about Woodward, who said she thought the first shot missed but is still obviously describing the first report as occurring at z190-224.

 

[Africanus]

Have anything you can point to or specific points to argue or is it just "these experts say different"? My experts actually saw and handled the body, and at least four of them specifically said that the cowlick red spot is not the small head wound.

And my experts actually used the x-rays of Kennedy's skull to reach their conclusions.

 

[BStrong]

And here you go arguing ballistics again.

The 6.5×52mm round was proprietary to the Carcano. The rifling on the recovered bullets show that they were fired from a Carcano. The rifle has a gain twist of 1:8" compared to the M-16A2's 1:7", and the full metal jacket, and 160 grains in the shell load gave Oswald a small canon that fired a round moving at 2,700 fps. Simply put, the Carcano was twice as powerful as it's .306 cousins.

The 6.5×52mm round Oswald used penetrates 4 feet of ponderosa pine and 2 feet of elm wood, and emerge undamaged. (Nichols & Lattimer).

So...

It's going to make a nice ROUND hole on entry, and because the round is over-stabilized they cavitate inside the body like a buzz saw, which is why Kennedy's head exploded. The throat wound gave little resistance to that bullet, but it was still cavitating between JFK and Connally, causing the crazy amount of damage to his body.

This is the part you and every JFK Cter ignore:

In 1963, and even today, there is NOT A LOT OF FORENSIC DATA on the 6.5×52mm round because it is so rare. This means that the FBI and DPD had to start from scratch with this part of the investigation because there was nothing to compare to. This means you can't discuss Kennedy's wounds in general terms because general terms do not apply with the Carcano round.

The 6.5×52mm Carcano round that Oswald used was unique in every way. No other rifle has the capability of replicating the damage seen in Dallas. This is why you can find no conspiracy by looking at the shooting in Dealey Plaza - one rifle, and only one rifle could perform the work done that day.

One of the more entertaining fictional JFK assassination stories (The Third Bullet by Stephen Hunter) is the premise that there was a second shooter using a custom rifle in .264 Winchester Magnum chambering but using the Carcano bore diameter and rifling to confuse the issue.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/mar/8/book-review-the-third-bullet/

In 1963 the various 6.5 mm cartridges (including the slightly larger bore diameter .264 WinMag) weren't very popular in the U.S., but in Sweden they had adopted their 6.5 mm Mauser (6.5 x 55 mm) at the turn of the century and had enough faith in it that they maintained that caliber as their service rifle until they adopted the HK G3 in 7.62 NATO.

Having fired the 6.5 x 55mm through their Mauser service rifles and the AG42, the semi-auto rifle they adopted in that caliber, I've come to the conclusion that the 6.5 has a definite advantage over the 7.62 NATO.

 

[MicahJava]

And my experts actually used the x-rays of Kennedy's skull to reach their conclusions.

There is no evidence of metal fragments on the outside of the fracture some people think is an entry wound.

 

[BStrong]

Instability and yawing of bullets can cause elliptical holes. I think the people here would have an easier time arguing that a missed shot after Z313 bounced off the pavement and managed to hit Kennedy low in the head while he was slumped over.

15x6mm is extremely oval.

Evidence? or is the information being held hostage by "the world's best snipers?"

A stabilized projectile entering a skull at an angle can cause a larger entry than exit wound (you did read the information at my links above?) or a projectile in the right circumstances can glance off of a skull without penetrating (see above also.)

If you're attempting to suggest that an unstabilized projectile hit JFK you're going to need to explain why.

Nice strawman, no go,

 

[MicahJava]

Evidence? or is the information being held hostage by "the world's best snipers?"

A stabilized projectile entering a skull at an angle can cause a larger entry than exit wound (you did read the information at my links above?) or a projectile in the right circumstances can glance off of a skull without penetrating (see above also.)

If you're attempting to suggest that an unstabilized projectile hit JFK you're going to need to explain why.

Nice strawman, no go,

There was no sharp angle to explain such an oval wound. The back of his head was facing the direction of the depository at z312. It was practically asking for it.

 

[Africanus]

There is no evidence of metal fragments on the outside of the fracture some people think is an entry wound.

Nice try, but you will not succeed in fooling me! The fracture was not the entry wound, it was 1 cm above the actual entry wound, as described by Dr. McDonnel.

 

[BStrong]

There was no sharp angle to explain such an oval wound.The back of his head was facing the direction of the depository at z312. It was practically asking for it.

Could you science that assertion up for us?

IIRC the head shot angle swag is m/l 17 degrees, and if you read up a bit on headwound forensics you may find that headshots demonstrate all manner of counter-intuitive evidence, such as entry wounds being larger than exit wounds.

Still waiting for you to post some links to supporting evidence for your assertions.

Are "the best snipers in the world" on strike?

 

[HSienzant]

What's the point of even arguing further?

Most conspiracy theorists don't concede. They just go away when they can't win the debate.

HSienzant is here trying to say that Stringer's recollection and retraction of an exit wound in the back of the head somehow benefits the official story.

False! That's a Straw Man argument. I'm saying his telling multiple different stories doesn't benefit your attempt to utilize one of his recollections as something of value and avoid the other [earlier] recollection. Rather, it calls into question the value of using eyewitness recollections from nine or 30 years after the fact at all. Somehow you want to believe (and want us to believe) the 30-year after the fact recollection instead of the nine-year after the fact recollection or instead of the hard evidence like the x-rays and autopsy photos and the expert conclusions. All this was point out previously. All of it was ignored by you.

Axxman300 for some reason thinks that the Belmont memo was made before Air Force One landed.

Remember as well it's only hearsay. Belmont was NOT at the autopsy.

And when do you think it was written? As I pointed out, it's dated 11/22/63 and the autopsy didn't conclude - according to the pathologists - until about midnight. That means it was either conveyed to Belmont during the autopsy by a phone call from Sibert or O'Neill or it happened before the autopsy. What's the evidence indicate? And why should we believe a hearsay report?

Gah! Forget about it! What's the point of even going further than page 1 of the official autopsy report? The location and shape of the small head wound is certainly a giant problem with the official story.

Why? Wouldn't a bullet entering at an angle make an ellipitical wound? Isn't that also exactly what we see with the shoulder wound? It's longer than wide?

The very elliptical shape of the wound (about 3x1) is what you would get from subsonic ammunition, not 6.5 Carcano rounds which always create circular bullet holes.

Assumes facts not in evidence. Provide the facts for this statement, especially considering you're apparently not taking into account the bullet entered at an angle.

The lack of major brain damage acknowledged in that area,

Huh? The entire right hemisphere was disrupted, and much of it was gone. GONE. You've seen the IDA DOX drawing.

and the ridiculous deflection required is also a simple indicator that Kennedy was shot in the head more than once.

What ridiculous deflection? And how come NO qualified pathologist who ever looked at the body or the extant autopsy materials ever concluded there was two shots to the head? Not one expert agrees with you. That's a curious finding, don't you think?

[qimg]https://i.imgur.com/dpo8Wjl.png[/qimg]

Whoever is still stretching out the argument that a blemish on the scalp and a small fracture on an x-ray represents the true entry wound is starting to resemble Meatwad from Aqua Teen Hunger Force only being able to transform into the shape of a hot dog or an igloo.

I guess you're now putting your knowledge and what you can glean from internet copies ahead of that of the qualified experts who viewed the first generation autopsy materials. I think that's a mistake.

Note the above image describes the shoulder wound as 7x4 and the head wound as 15x6. Elliptical in both cases, right?

Why do you suppose that was, if it always makes a circular wound?

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

With the circumstances in Dealey Plaza, an entry wound in the head from the Carcano would be circular. There was no tangentile angle sharp enough.

Is this the word according to MicahJava, or is this the word according to some recognized authorities in the field of ballistics?

In this situation, such an oval entry wound is definitely evidence of subsonic ammunition.

Says who? You?

Elliptical entry wounds were more commonly seen with old guns in war time.

Says who? You? Please cite your recognized authorities on this subject.

This is why so many people want the red spot on the BOH photos to be the real entry wound.

It's not a matter of what we want it to be. It's a matter of what the evidence indicates. And what the experts say about that evidence. I can't speak for anyone else here, but I follow the evidence and the recognized expert opinion. I don't put much value in some anonymous internet poster's opinion.

Just look at the common LN arguments for the oval shape of Connally's back wound, where people like Bugliosi really lay it on thick and say the shape of the wound is "proof" he was hit by a tumbling bullet.

Can a tumbling bullet cause an ellipitical wound? Most certainly. Did the doctor who treated Connally describe it as ellipitical? Yes.

Mr. SPECTER - Will you describe in as much detail as you can the wound on the posterior side of the Governor's chest?
Dr. SHAW - This was a small wound approximately a centimeter and a half in its greatest diameter. It was roughly elliptical. It was just medial to the axilliary fold or the crease of the armpit, but we could tell that this wound, the depth of the wound, had not penetrated the shoulder blade.
Mr. SPECTER - What were the characteristics, if any, which indicated to you that it was a wound of entrance then?
Dr. SHAW - Its small size, and the rather clean cut edges of the wound as compared to the usual more ragged wound of exit.

Now, should we rely on your judgments or those of the experts?

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

Okay, let's stop there. I can find very little evidence for a loud shot before 190-224. The film blurs slightly (as it does at other random times), Connally's head turns to the right kind of fast and Rosemary Willis slows down (Phillip Willis said he might've called out to her). I think that's about it, this could all amount to coincidence.

Just count the number of witnesses specifically said Kennedy reacted to the first shot, describing sometimes similar to the 190-224+ reactions, or said the limousine slowed after the first shot. I think a lot of witness statements are being misinterpreted to make this first missed shot exist. There are no witnesses who say that Kennedy was smiling and waving after the first report. James Tague always swore that he perceived being nicked in the cheek at the time of the second or third shot.

Please review the discussion with Robert Harris in the beginning of this thread and prior to that, the end of the prior thread.

I have no great reason to go through it all again for your convenience.

Let me know if you have any questions.

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

We've talked about Connally before. He marked on a map when he thought the shooting started, at about the z220's. He viewed the Z film and felt that the first loud shot he heard was at ~z190, and he was hit at ~231.

And he was wrong about the 231-234 [not 231] range as the time he was hit, wasn't he?

Why couldn't he be wrong about other aspects of the assassination?

Mr. SPECTER. And when do you think you were hit on those slides, Governor, or in what range of slides?
Governor CONNALLY. We took--you are talking about the number of the slides?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Governor CONNALLY. As we looked at them this morning, and as you related the numbers to me, it appeared to me that I was hit in the range between 130 or 131, I don't remember precisely, up to 134, in that bracket.
Mr. SPECTER. May I suggest to you that it was 231?
Governor CONNALLY. Well, 231 and 234, then.
Mr. SPECTER. The series under our numbering system starts with a higher number when the car comes around the turn, so when you come out of the sign, which was----
Governor CONNALLY. It was just after we came out of the sign, for whatever that sequence of numbers was, and if it was 200, I correct my testimony. It was 231 to about 234. It was within that range.

Or are victims of gunfire always the best witnesses to the sequence of shots?

Hank