Corbyn's days (very) numbered?

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

New Labour improved the country.

Every supporter of every government everywhere would make exactly the same claim.

David Cameron improved the country in some ways.

What was the lasting legacy of New Labour?

 

[Tolls]

My personal (very biased and probably unfair) view is that he's an old class-warrior who views everyone richer than himself (something that he underestimates significantly) as a Scrooge McDuck ready for plucking and that there will be money a-plenty. Of course the middle classes will end up paying but from his perspective they are on the wrong side of the class war divide in any case.

I've been waiting for McDonald to come out with a "pips squeak" moment.
(Yes, I know Denis is misquoted on that).

 

[Craig B]

Once the Soviet Union collapsed it became difficult to claim that socialism was a successful system anywhere - remember the 'End of History'?

Yes. The National Health Service is socialism. Stalinist labour camps were socialism. Therefore free medical care is the same as a slave labour camp.

 

[3point14]

Yes. The National Health Service is socialism. Stalinist labour camps were socialism. Therefore free medical care is the same as a slave labour camp.

Any form of taxation for provision of any public services is socialism, to a degree, isn't it?


Or is 'socialism' an absolute term?

 

[The Don]

What was the lasting legacy of New Labour?

IMO the key elements were:

• Restoring funding to the NHS so that it was nearly high enough
• A significant reduction in child poverty
• Introduction of tax credits to give proper support for low income families
• Long-overdue investment in new schools and hospitals (though I was alwasy vehemently opposed to the PFI that funded it)
• Ensuring that international aid was a permanent and fixed part of government spending
• Signing up to the EHCR and the EU Social Chapter with all that brought in terms of rights

 

[Craig B]

Any form of taxation for provision of any public services is socialism, to a degree, isn't it?

If you wish. But not every economy in which that happens is comparable with the USSR. Nor is the practice of providing public services discredited by the collapse of the USSR.

 

[SashatheMagnificent]

IMO the key elements were:

• Restoring funding to the NHS so that it was nearly high enough
• A significant reduction in child poverty
• Introduction of tax credits to give proper support for low income families
• Long-overdue investment in new schools and hospitals (though I was alwasy vehemently opposed to the PFI that funded it)
• Ensuring that international aid was a permanent and fixed part of government spending
• Signing up to the EHCR and the EU Social Chapter with all that brought in terms of rights

Missing anything here?
A four letter word

 

[3point14]

If you wish. But not every economy in which that happens is comparable with the USSR. Nor is the practice of providing public services discredited by the collapse of the USSR.

This is what I'm trying to demonstrate - socialism isn't an absolute, you can have a lot or a little of it. The dissolution of the USSR is in no way an argument against moderate socialism.

 

[Aber]

Yes. The National Health Service is socialism. Stalinist labour camps were socialism. Therefore free medical care is the same as a slave labour camp.

Strawman much?

 

[Aber]

If you wish. But not every economy in which that happens is comparable with the USSR. Nor is the practice of providing public services discredited by the collapse of the USSR.

And Labour's Clause 4 committed it to:

...common ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange...

which looks like pretty full socialism.

 

[Craig B]

And Labour's Clause 4 committed it to:

...common ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange...

which looks like pretty full socialism.

Therefore you believe that Labour imposed a Stalinist social order in the period 1945 to 1951. Or you don't. Or you believe that the NHS is similar to a Stalinist labour camp. Or you don't.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

And Labour's Clause 4 committed it to:

...common ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange...

which looks like pretty full socialism.

Interesting that you mention that. Just to check what the Labour Party stands for now I went to their website. Lots of social media stuff some nice graphics. I couldn't actually find anything about their principles.

Mind you when I Google Conservative Party it doesn't give me their homepage. Just shop.conservatives.com. I think that tells us their principles pretty clearly.

 

[The Don]

Interesting that you mention that. Just to check what the Labour Party stands for now I went to their website. Lots of social media stuff some nice graphics. I couldn't actually find anything about their principles.

Mind you when I Google Conservative Party it doesn't give me their homepage. Just shop.conservatives.com. I think that tells us their principles pretty clearly.

http://www.labour.org.uk/pages/what-is-the-labour-party

The values Labour stands for today are those which have guided it throughout its existence.

• social justice
• strong community and strong values
• reward for hard work
• decency
• rights matched by responsibilities

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

http://www.labour.org.uk/pages/what-is-the-labour-party

How do you find that from the homepage? I didn't exactly knock myself out trying but I still can't see how you get to that page from anywhere.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

This is what I'm trying to demonstrate - socialism isn't an absolute, you can have a lot or a little of it. The dissolution of the USSR is in no way an argument against moderate socialism.

Maybe the news just hasn't reached the Nordic countries yet so they're blundering on in successful ignorance?

 

[dudalb]

This is what I'm trying to demonstrate - socialism isn't an absolute, you can have a lot or a little of it. The dissolution of the USSR is in no way an argument against moderate socialism.

AH,but the question is what is "Moderate Socialism"?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

AH,but the question is what is "Moderate Socialism"?

Surely like moderate anything it means applying it where it makes sense but not dogmatically so. NHS yes. Publically owned railways and utilities possibly. Publically owned department stores no.

 

[Aber]

Therefore you believe that Labour imposed a Stalinist social order in the period 1945 to 1951. Or you don't. Or you believe that the NHS is similar to a Stalinist labour camp. Or you don't.

And on ignore you go.

 

[a_unique_person]

AH,but the question is what is "Moderate Socialism"?

What is moderate capitalism.

 

[lionking]

And Labour's Clause 4 committed it to:

...common ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange...

which looks like pretty full socialism.

Does anyone deny this? Corbyn has acknowledged that Labour is a socialist party. I give him credit for honesty. And stupidity.