General Holocaust denial discussion Part III

[Hans]

. My general point is that the radical right (defeated Germany, Italy,) was not represented among the sponsoring powers. International law thus leans towards egalitarianism more than it would if this were not the case.

So in your opinion had the two defeated fascist powers (and the parties that ran them) been included in sponsoring international law what tenets of law do you think they would have inserted into it?

I ask as I find that point odd.

 

[Ivanesca]

My general point is that the radical right (defeated Germany, Italy,) was not represented among the sponsoring powers. International law thus leans towards egalitarianism more than it would if this were not the case.

You do realize that a German state didn't exist immediately after the war - due to the apocalyptic, suicidal obstinacy of the Nazis which caused the utter demolition of the Third Reich as well as great harm to the German people

Lol, come on Lemmy. Don't you know you're spouting propaganda made up "in the interests of the victors"? XD XD

Seriously, though. Since EtienneSC brought up "International law", let's talk about Interpol- one of the arms of so called "International Law". It's very well known and very conspicuous that Interpol did not help in the pursuit of Nazi Criminals, or worse yet, protected them. The reason why is obvious as well; just like the West German government, intelligence services, police and legal system, Interpol was heavily staffed by former Nazis and Nazi collaborators. They protected their own and basically told Jewish leaders who asked for their help to buzz off. Thus, instead of being "excluded" from "international law", it looks as if EtienneSC's heroes were allowed in to one of its major organs, and that they used their position to skew "international law" in their favor and screw their victims over one last time.

So, no. EtienneSC is wrong again, as usual. His fantasies have blinded him to reality, which was far removed from his baseless insinuations of "forgery" and "propaganda". The whole premise of Holocaust Denial is false; none of the evidence was "manufactured" because there was no one who wanted to "manufacture" it. It happened, and the perpetrators and their supporters had every opportunity to deny or disprove it, given their high positions in society and a world largely indifferent to their crimes against the Jews. And yet, they didn't. They themselves knew they were guilty of their crimes, and were proud of them. Just like Max Taubner and his voyeuristic photos.

 

[Ivanesca]

The Charter of the United Nations (first words, October 1945, i.e. before the IMT) only refers to "the scourge of war, which twice in our lifetime has brought untold sorrow to mankind".The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (Preamble, December 1948, i.e. after the IMT) refers to "barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind", but neither refers specifically to the holocaust or indicates explicitly what is meant.

Thus, the premise of Denial is shown to be false once more. There was no "sifting of atrocity claims to create a damning account of Germany". And by not mentioning the Genocide against the Jews, the UN demonstrated that it was neither controlled by nor acting on behalf of the Jews. And yet the evidence for the Holocaust was still there. Having demonstrated that "forgery" was at odds with and therefore mutually exclusive with the actual "interests of the victors", we can only conclude that the evidence was 100% genuine. Since the evidence was 100% genuine and did not come about as a result of external forces, we can only conclude that the events they describe happened. There was no "forgery", and every denier who has used this baseless talking point is lying. Present company included.

 

[Degeneve]

My general point is that the radical right (defeated Germany, Italy,) was not represented among the sponsoring powers. International law thus leans towards egalitarianism more than it would if this were not the case.

It is probably because no serial killer was involved in drafting criminal law that criminal law thus leans towards murder prohibition more than it would if this were the case.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Lol, come on Lemmy. Don't you know you're spouting propaganda made up "in the interests of the victors"?

I can only guess that in the alternative reality outlined by EtienneSC, the Allies should have, more quickly than they did, put Nazis back into key positions in Germany and then perhaps have even reassembled the Nazi party and its organizations so that they could speak effectively in international forums.

 

[Degeneve]

I can only guess that in the alternative reality outlined by EtienneSC, the Allies should have, more quickly than they did, put Nazis back into key positions in Germany and then perhaps have even reassembled the Nazi party and its organizations so that they could speak effectively in international forums.

Frankly speaking the only way to get the Nazis back into key positions in Germany more quickly than they did would have been to let the Nazis win WW II...

 

[muttkat]

The point is that the video shows Ernst Zündel and other deniers being rigorously persecuted. Pro Holocausters do not speak up against that unusual practice, which means: they support it. In this case a discussion is not a discussion, science is not science. Thesis without anti thesis cannot lead to sythesis, is unscientific, if not unethical. Everybody being involved in such a pseudo discussion behaves this unethical way - deniers as well as all others. First persecution has to be removed everywhere. Then discussions can be called discussions.

Good comment. I had read the reason for the persecution of persons who deny some of the lies is because the Zionists who promote these stories don't want the truth uncovered.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Good comment. I had read the reason for the persecution of persons who deny some of the lies is because the Zionists who promote these stories don't want the truth uncovered.

Where did you read such things?

 

[Dash80]

Good comment. I had read the reason for the persecution of persons who deny some of the lies is because the Zionists who promote these stories don't want the truth uncovered.

Another denier who throws around words like "zionist" when, of course, you mean Jew right?

Deniers should not be persecuted, they should be ignored.

Not one denier out there can explain where the Jews they deny were murdered, actually went.

For example, over 430,000 Jews were sent to Belzec in 1942. If Belzec was just an innocent little transit camp, deniers would have no trouble showing that those almost half a million Jews continued their journey after being disinfected/deloused... and where they were ultimately deported to.

 

[muttkat]

Where did you read such things?

I believe it was from this man, Nathanael Kapner.

I can't use URL'S until after 15 comments, so the name of the video is Brother Nanthanael The Holocaust Denial Debate 2015 HD

 

[muttkat]

holocaust

How do I delete this comment?

"You don't have to be a Jew to be a Zionist." Joe Biden

Shall I use the words Jew and Jewish instead?

What exactly does a denier deny?

The 6 million figure?

That any died in gas chambers?

 

[muttkat]

"You don't have to be a Jew to be a Zionist." Joe Biden

Shall I use the words Jew and Jewish instead?

What exactly does a denier deny?

The 6 million figure?

That any died in gas chambers?

 

[Degeneve]

How do I delete this comment?

"You don't have to be a Jew to be a Zionist." Joe Biden

Shall I use the words Jew and Jewish instead?

What exactly does a denier deny?

The 6 million figure?

That any died in gas chambers?

As a matter of fact deniers deny the existence of a plan to kill all Jews in Germany and in occupied Europe by starvation, ill-treatments, firing squads and/or industrial means (i.e. gassings) decided at the highest level of the Third Reich (i.e. by Adolf Hitler himself) and the fact that this plan has been actually carried out leading to the death of an undetermined number of European Jews estimated by the historians to be in a range of 5.2 to 5.9 millions.

 

[Dash80]

How do I delete this comment?

"You don't have to be a Jew to be a Zionist." Joe Biden

Shall I use the words Jew and Jewish instead?

Well it also works the other way. Not all Jews are Zionists.

So who are the Zionists you said don't want the "truth" to be uncovered?

What exactly does a denier deny?

The 6 million figure?

That any died in gas chambers?

Degeneve gave a good answer to that.

The gas chambers seem to be the main denier theme, many of the "armchair" deniers I've come across appear to give other methods far less thought and attention.

One denier I recently had a conversation with genuinely didn't seem to know what the Einsatzgruppen were. Of course, once he'd looked it up he started to dismiss the mass murders by shooting too.

 

[BaaBaa]

What credibility could "Brother" Nathanael possibly have?

 

[LemmyCaution]

I believe it was from this man, Nathanael Kapner.

I can't use URL'S until after 15 comments, so the name of the video is Brother Nanthanael The Holocaust Denial Debate 2015 HD

This video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Phmcv0VYzwU

Transcript here.

Brother Nathanael goes on about "the Yiddish Gripe," co-religionists, "Jewish opposition to historical integrity," and "Jewry’s official version of the Holocaust" - but he doesn't describe how he thinks, as you claimed, "the Zionists . . . promote these stories." Instead he mainly defends people who write propaganda and spread falsehoods about the Holocaust - it's a very weak video, even for deniers, offering no evidence and a bit of hysteria, but it doesn't say what you posted that it said.

If anything, this man Brother Nathanael targets "Jewry." In general. And ignores the massive amount of scholarship on the Holocaust done by researchers from a wide variety of faiths, backgrounds, and perspectives. An important way we know about the Holocaust is from the work of such scholars, without relying on novels or on commemorative ceremonies and writing or on Finkelstein's critique of a so-called Holocaust industry.

If you read scholarship of the Third Reich and WWII, you will understand that there is no "official story" and certainly not "Jewry's official version" of German crimes during the war. Who promotes what Brother Nathanael calls "Jewry's official version"? Where can I read it? Why do you think Brother Nathanael ignores research and scholarship and instead focuses on the supposed machinations of "Jewry"?

 

[Jeffk 1970]

Deniers should not be persecuted, they should be ignored.

.

Agreed.

But they are fun to talk to.

 

[Jeffk 1970]

"You don't have to be a Jew to be a Zionist." Joe Biden

Shall I use the words Jew and Jewish instead?

What exactly does a denier deny?

The 6 million figure?

That any died in gas chambers?

Why do deniers fixate on "6 million?"

Why do deniers fixate on gas chambers?

The estimates of the Jewish dead range from 4.8 to 5.9 million, even 6.2 million. I think the last two are way too high, I'm inclined to a figure closer to 5.5 million (though I am willing to listen to arguments on either side).

As far as gas chambers, around 2.5 million died in the various gas chambers of Chelmno, the Action Reinhard Camps, Chelmno and smaller numbers in other camps, plus the gas vans used by the Einsatsgruppen. About 1.3 million died of mass shooting, the rest of the number is made up of those that died from disease, maltreatment, starvation.

So, maybe muttkat needs to broaden his/her horizons.

 

[LemmyCaution]

As a matter of fact deniers deny the existence of a plan to kill all Jews in Germany and in occupied Europe by starvation, ill-treatments, firing squads and/or industrial means (i.e. gassings) decided at the highest level of the Third Reich (i.e. by Adolf Hitler himself) and the fact that this plan has been actually carried out leading to the death of an undetermined number of European Jews estimated by the historians to be in a range of 5.2 to 5.9 millions.

Deniers fixate on this idea of a master plan (one denier formulation runs no master plan, no gas chambers, not 6 million). But what negationists really deny is the mass murder of millions of Jews by the Germans and their allies.

Listen to what Hilberg had to say as early as in his dissertation (in 1955) about a master plan: "The Germans did not have a basic plan, but their actions fell into a basic pattern." There were many plans, a basic pattern, different operations and actions under various commands, and a coming together of improvised solutions toward an outcome (a world without Jews, in Alon Confino's phrasing). Deniers don't like Hilberg any more than they like a more intentionalist historian who argues that there was a single basic plan.

 

[Degeneve]

Deniers fixate on this idea of a master plan (one denier formulation runs no master plan, no gas chambers, not 6 million). But what negationists really deny is the mass murder of millions of Jews by the Germans and their allies.

Listen to what Hilberg had to say as early as in his dissertation (in 1955) about a master plan: "The Germans did not have a basic plan, but their actions fell into a basic pattern." There were many plans, a basic pattern, different operations and actions under various commands, and a coming together of improvised solutions toward an outcome (a world without Jews, in Alon Confino's phrasing). Deniers don't like Hilberg any more than they like a more intentionalist historian who argues that there was a single basic plan.

You are right. I have been too fast while writing this. There was indeed no global or master plan, but there was nevertheless a clear goal which was the extermination of the European Jews, even if it took years as from Hitler accession to power to formalize this objective. And it indeed materialized trough several plans, actions and commands.