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Trump runs for POTUS / Trumped Up! Part V

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phiwum said:
...In what way is Trump's comment comparable to anything Obama said above (or elsewhere) about the guilt of this or that suspect?...
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My opinion is, that in politics -- all politics, think of your own experience with workplace politics -- if you really dislike someone you can make virtually anything they say or do look bad. With some of Obama's critics here, I think we reached that point a long time ago. Anything he says or does they will find a way to interpret it in a highly negative way. Trying to reason with them is a waste of time. They lost their objectivity a long time ago. Sad but undoubtedly true. :(
 
newyorkguy said:
My opinion is, that in politics -- all politics, think of your own experience with workplace politics -- if you really dislike someone you can make virtually anything they say or do look bad. With some of Obama's critics here, I think we reached that point a long time ago. Anything he says or does they will find a way to interpret it in a highly negative way. Trying to reason with them is a waste of time. They lost their objectivity a long time ago. Sad but undoubtedly true. :(
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Call me a silly romantic, I suppose.

I think that persons can actually be persuaded through reason. I am, of course, familiar with daily interactions to the contrary, but I still hold that dream. I think that I have biases, and that some of these biases are wrong, but if you present a sound argument, then at least I can consciously concede the point.

I think that this naive optimism is in fact a necessary precondition for the discussions we're having. If we each are so intellectually flawed that argumentation has no effect on the beliefs we have, then surely we might as well stop the conversation.

(Yes, yes, I know, that's kinda what's happening in the fragmented media we have today, but I regard that as an unnecessary and bad thing.)
 
phiwum said:
On the other hand, if one claims he will do X after election, not knowing whether he will do it or not, then he is lying. He's speaking about his own intentions, and if he literally doesn't know whether he will pursue X or not, then he is bloody well lying about what he plans to do.
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Whatever he says will be embedded in lies so it makes no real difference. Sometimes I have to joke just to keep the demons away ... :eek:
 
phiwum said:
Call me a silly romantic, I suppose.

I think that persons can actually be persuaded through reason.
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It can and does happen - hope springs eternal!

But rarely overnight, and some seem pretty much immune to persuasion.

My mind is pretty much made up against Trump, and has been for about a year. It is hard for me to imagine anything that could sway me into his camp at this point.

I'm a little more on the fence with Hillary, but that belongs in another thread.
 
Garrison said:
frankly I think this is more concerning than whether Trump jumped the gun on calling the bomber a terrorist:


Donald Trump attacks Ahmad Khan Rahami's right to a lawyer and medical treatment

It seems Trump wants to get down in the mud and wallow in the same barbarism we expect from the terrorist. He truly doesn't get that the point of due process isn't to protect the terrorist but society as a whole from the threat of unjust treatment.
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Of course what Trump can't see is that this kind of reaction is exactly what ISIS wants. Protection from arbitrary actions by the state is what Western society has over pretty much all others. Trump would throw that away in the US if he could. Fortunately the US has a Constitution and a Supreme Court that won't let him.

I can see him spending his term fighting the Supreme Court over something like his right to order torture of randomly selected Muslims until they tell us what's going on. Because they all know. They all know. Believe me. They all know.
 
Trump : "We have to be strong."

I recall Muhammed Ali saying "They tell me Joe Frazier is strong. I say he should use Right Guard", but I might be misremembering.
 
Fast Eddie B said:
It can and does happen - hope springs eternal!

But rarely overnight, and some seem pretty much immune to persuasion.

My mind is pretty much made up against Trump, and has been for about a year. It is hard for me to imagine anything that could sway me into his camp at this point.
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Me too, but that doesn't mean that we have reached this stage without reason or are immune to reason.

I'm not a Bayesian, but Bayesianism gives a decent model of where you and I stand (if our probabilities have been the process of rational reflection). We have seen strong evidence that Trump is bad for the country, and little evidence that he is good for the country. Given sufficient evidence, our opinions would be swayed.

Again, this optimism in the effects of evidence and argumentation really is, for me, a matter of faith. I could be wrong. Maybe there's good evidence that I am wrong (there is certainly good evidence that we don't tend to reasoned conclusion). But without this optimism, I see no point for argument or discussion. We would simply be playing word games to titillate ourselves.

Which might be a pretty good description of the more reputable parts of the internet.
 
NoahFence said:
I'm a little lost in that. What's the story?

A charity tournament got screwed by Trump, I'm sure that's the gist, but how?
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Failure to comply with hole length for an insurance policy and then attempting to cover it up.
 
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