Brexit: Now What? Part II

[Tolls]

I notice that you have failed to address any inaccuracies or outright lies of the remain campaign.

Che cosa fare una sorpresa

You posted a Leave leaflet that people commented on pointing out the inaccuracies.

I didn't see anyone on the Remain side posting a Remain leaflet...

 

[Airfix]

You're missing the point by a country mile.

They expel people who are openly racist or openly sectarian.

They field ethnic minority candidates including Blacks and Asians.
Peter Whittle the Assembly Member for London is gay.
David Coburn MEP is gay.
Steven Woolfe MEP is mixed race.
Gerard Batten is married to a Fillipino immigrant.
Nigel Farage is married to a German immigrant.

Your argument is invalid.

 

[McHrozni]

You're missing the point by a country mile.

No, you are. They pander to racist sectarian hicks, giving their views importance and value. Even if they themselves don't support these views, they do support, reinforce and empower the racist sectarian hicks in that way.

I imagine this is too complex for you, so you won't understand it and will revert to your usual tactics of denial, obfuscation, changing the subject, lame comments or a combination of those.

McHrozni

 

[catsmate]

Only the rules to do with product safety and product standards compliance.

Nope. The EU gets to decide, the UK can accept or not.

Inefficiency couldn't be reformed without state aid.

Or by eliminating unionised feather-bedding and other measures.

EU rules make it harder to provide that aid.

Yep, for very good reasons.

It is the EU which provides the bulk of improper regulation.

Not true. The UK actively opposed greater FS regulation.

It does better than it does in the EU.

Unsupported assertion. And remember the UK is still part of the EU.

Partly because of EU rules and wasteful financial contributions to the EU.

Unsupported assertion. And more silly EU bashing.

Continental fishing trawlers overfished, our boats could not compete.
As members of the EU we had to allow access to our waters.

This has been covered and is simply not true.

So you want to kill off manufacturing in Britain ?

Nope the UK is doing quite a good job of that alone.

I like chocolate, don't you ?

In moderation yes. I don't, however, attempt to build an economic model on it.

And soon we won't have to levy customs tariffs on cocoa.

Or adhere to those pesky standards.

No, there is uncertainty, but to date no big manufacturer has left because of the referendum.

Just wait...

To provide time to reform and return to profit and to provide funds for survival. It was done for the banks, so why not steel ?

No, it isn't. Unless you're in banking it's a terrible bureaucratic quagmire of inefficiency waste and in some cases corruption.

Untrue.

The consequences being, freedom, opportunity, not being part of the EU military programme, being able to decide our own customs tariff policy, full self governance over UK tax policies.

And fewer brown people.

Freedom to nationalise anything the UK wishes to, so if we want, the railways could be returned to 100% state ownership, the NHS could be too.

Yeah, I'm sure the Conservatives will do just that.

 

[The Don]

Nothing to do with UKIP.

Really ? The party that uses Nazi imagery in its campaign posters has nothing to do with a rise is racially motivated hate crimes ?

UKIP destroyed the BNP's electoral chances.
In 2010 the BNP got 564,331 votes.
In 2015 the BNP got 1,667 votes.

Any racially motivated attacks will come from former members of the BNP, not UKIP.

....and guess which party they now support

 

[McHrozni]

https://southessexheckler.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/anti_ukip_poster.jpg?w=1108

McHrozni

 

[catsmate]

I see a lot of unevidenced claims in Arifix's most recent post

Vast amounts of them.

That the UK is unable to compete in the global market because of our net contributions to the EU is laughable.

True.

At one end of the spectrum we are being spanked by China and the developing world because their cost bases are orders of magnitude lower, their environmental legislation laughable and their workers' rights almost non-existent. If you want to found a workers' paradise by attempting to compete with the developing world on cost then I think you're going to be very disappointed.

I'm sure many in the UK Conservative party and it's fan-base would welcome abolishing worker protections.

At the other end of the spectrum we're being spanked by Germany, the Baltic states and Scandinavia on quality and innovation. As they're members of the EU, it's not the Eu to blame for that either.

Yep. Better education systems and better support for nascent industries.

Poor employer/employee relationships with plenty of blame on both sides

Yep. The 'Them and Us' mentality is still there. Unlike say Germany with proper workplace councils.

Chronic under-investment resulting in outdated plant and product

Short-termism in the boardroom with decisions being made on a three month and not ten year time horizon
These have existed for decades but no-one has tackled them. Right back the the 1920s when Bri**** industry started to lag behind.

A chronically underskilled workforce due to both employer and employee attitudes to skills development

Absolutely. And government attitudes to education haven't helped.

None of which have been caused by the EU and some of which are partially ameliorated by EU-introduced legislation.

True.

At the start of the thread which ran prior to the Brexit vote I asked how the UK will be more competitive outside the EU without it having a negative impact on workers pay and conditions, the environment or consumer rights. i never received an adequate answer.

I don't think you'll get one.

I see a distinct lack of understanding of what the EU is, how it works, what it's legislation is and what it's legislation is for, in the posts of remainers.

I think he meant rather that if Uk was outside of EU, they could bypass some rules on worker protection, bypass rules on illegal subsidy for governments to companies (Those "helps" mentionned upthread) and even bypass some protections on financial sector put in place since 2008, and make their own trade deal which would be better than the one offered to EU. Also he meant there would not be different rules on foreign worker possible as the one existing today.

It's truly weird that a leftist would be so ignorant/dismissive of the EU contribution to protecting workers in the UK.

 

[catsmate]

So I read it as "wasteful financial contributions to the EU" were a significant factor in UK uncompetitiveness.

That was my take also, plus the idea that UK industry was inefficient mainly because of EU imposed rules, a common right-wing accusation.

 

[catsmate]

Meanwhile in EU land:
Guy Verhofstadt the EU's Brexit negotiator said:

https://twitter.com/GuyVerhofstadt/status/775366813836255232

What an excellent idea. Unfortunately the idea of an EU military isn't actually being proposed.

 

[catsmate]

Sigh. it is about a cooperation between EU armies. Not about integration into one big EU army. It is about like Europol and interpol which are not police department themselves, just local people designated to allow communication and coordination.

Rather like NATO and STANAGs in fact.

Well whatever airfix, we are wrong you are right and we have no clue. You said it so it msut be true.

It's the ideological filtering.

 

[The Don]

It's truly weird that a leftist would be so ignorant/dismissive of the EU contribution to protecting workers in the UK.

Airfix is a rare bird though. (S)He seems to now have switched to defending the UKIP and its leadership which is an interesting choice for someone who as up until now extolled the virtues of Tony Benn, David Owen and the Beast of Bolsover.

That said maybe (s)he is part of that small group of old school Labour supporters who have been convinced by UKIP that they (UKIP) are looking after the interests of the British (white) working classes and not corporate interests who want to get rid of workers protections, make importing cheaper and privatise the NHS....

 

[catsmate]

Yes. I agree on one thing. The sooner we get rid of Britain the better. Hell, you should have invoked it already. Best part is how completely whole Brexit silenced exiters in my country. And you haven't yet even invoked article...

This. Then the rest of the EU can feast on the carcass. As Sir Terry didn't (quite) say:

Let me see if I've got this right. Britain is like this big suet pudding that everyone"s suddenly noticed, and now with Brexit as an excuse we've all got to rush there with knife, fork and spoon to shovel as much on our plates as possible?

 

[Airfix]

Really ? The party that uses Nazi imagery in its campaign posters has nothing to do with a rise is racially motivated hate crimes ?

Nazi imagery ? A photo from the Guardian used to illustrate that the EU's mismanagement of the refugee crisis is at "breaking point" and it's "Nazi imagery"?

Bull.

It's actually a very good point. The EU has done nothing to discourage trafficking.

It has done nothing to provide alternative safe passage and thousands have died at sea and on land.

....and guess which party they now support

We live in a free society they have a vote which they can use to support any party.

But former members of the BNP, NF and other hate groups including the inappropriately titled Hope not Hate organisation, have been officially forbidden from joining since 2008.

Unfortunately the policy is not retrospective and does not apply to people who joined before 2008. If you want to criticise them for not retrospectively banning ex BNP and NF members who joined before 2008, that's fine by me.
They should have retrospectively banned any such people.

 

[The Don]

That was my take also, plus the idea that UK industry was inefficient mainly because of EU imposed rules, a common right-wing accusation.

....and one where, when challenged during the referendum campaign, the best that the Leave advocate, and business representative, could come up with was an EU diktat that all chairs must have five legs*.


* - and they even got that wrong. As I understand it that relates to office chairs with a single central column, they should have at least five points of floor contact for stability reasons

 

[catsmate]

quotes from your links

"A UK government spokesman said defence was a national responsibility and there was no prospect of a European army."

"Britain's view was that EU defence co-operation should only go so far"

"Hungary's Prime Minister Viktor Orban said "we must give priority to security, so let's start setting up a joint European army".
The UK government has strongly opposed any such moves outside Nato's scope."

"UK governments have previously opposed the creation of a fully-fledged European army"

Bah, mere facts.

 

[The Don]

Nazi imagery ? A photo from the Guardian used to illustrate that the EU's mismanagement of the refugee crisis is at "breaking point" and it's "Nazi imagery"?

Yes, as with everything context and captioning is everything.

Bull.

It's actually a very good point. The EU has done nothing to discourage trafficking.

It has done nothing to provide alternative safe passage and thousands have died at sea and on land.

This again ?

How many times does this nonsense have to be debunked in a single thread ?

We live in a free society they have a vote which they can use to support any party.

True, but your point was that UKIP had eviscerated the BNP's support. Yes it has, by giving racists a mainstream party to vote for instead. So a drop in support for the BNP is not evidence that UKIP supporters are responsible for the rise in racially motivated hate crime.

 

[Airfix]

Airfix is a rare bird though. (S)He seems to now have switched to defending the UKIP and its leadership which is an interesting choice for someone who as up until now extolled the virtues of Tony Benn, David Owen and the Beast of Bolsover.

I do.

I haven't discussed the economic policies of UKIP.
I am not a member of any political party.

I reserve the right to vote for any non racist party.

Again, you miss the point.
When it comes to the argument for leaving the EU they are in exactly the same boat as me.

And they have served the country brilliantly by helping bring about the in/out referendum.

What do you want from me, a million word essay explaining everything about my views ?

 

[catsmate]

Which renewables, for which date, using which set of assumptions?

The report was published in 2013 based on the Parsons Brinckerhoff data and covered gas, coal, nuclear, biomass, onshore and offstore wind, solar and co-firing plus coal converted to biomass. It's the most recent UKGov survey in detail of the options and is available from the website.

 

[Airfix]

So a drop in support for the BNP is not evidence that UKIP supporters are responsible for the rise in racially motivated hate crime.

And it is not evidence that UKIP is directly responsible for the rise in racially motivated hate crime either.

 

[catsmate]

[qimg]http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/30F9/production/_89173521_leave_leaflet.jpg[/qimg]

These were the points in the official Vote Leave campaign leaflet.

So? You do remember the subtle and not-too-subtle emphasis on immigration (especially of brown people) complete with scare stories, exaggeration and outright lies?