Continuation Part 22: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Are you now claiming that the car was washed down with bleach destroying any DNA? If so, why no claims by the police of a strong odor of bleach? After all, the said they could smell it in his apartment. But, strangely, not in the cottage within hours of the alleged "clean up".

Were there no fingerprints or no identifiable fingerprints? Smudged, therefore unidentifiable, fingerprints are common to find as the prosecution expert, Privitera, testified.


I didn't think I could hear an "argument" quite so ridiculous as "The police found none of Sollecito's DNA from the areas they swabbed in his car, and that's evidence of his participation in the murder of Kercher". But I suppose I should long ago have learned that the potent combination of low intellect and latent bias among pro-guilt commentators results in such jaw-dropping bat guano.......
 
I didn't think I could hear an "argument" quite so ridiculous as "The police found none of Sollecito's DNA from the areas they swabbed in his car, and that's evidence of his participation in the murder of Kercher". But I suppose I should long ago have learned that the potent combination of low intellect and latent bias among pro-guilt commentators results in such jaw-dropping bat guano.......

This time I have to side with Vixen.

It is your own confirmation bias LondonJohn which blinds you and always has. I'm surprised you think you can get away with it.

If there's a piece of evidence which when investigated/analyzed turns up nothing against Raffaele, the only possible explanation for that is something Raffaele himself has done to sully the record.

It's not just his car. At interrogation Raffaele surrendered a knife he quite stupidly brought to the Questura. Bongiorno obviously used her influence to bury what may well have been the murder weapon.

And how do we really know that Raffaele and Rudy following the murder simply mistook each others' Nike shoes and put on the wrong ones? Can you prove they didn't?

I thought not.

I'm with Vixen on this one. Absence of evidence in Raffaele's car to do with the murder is highly, highly I say, suspicious.
 
All the "evidence" is like that isn't it?

No footprints of the students leading to the bathmat = evidence they cleaned them up.

The kitchen knife doesn't match the wounds or imprint = evidence it was a second knife

Amanda didn't reveal any accurate information in the interrogation = evidence she was lying to cover it up

There's a break-in to the cottage = evidence the students are guilty since it must have been staged and only a resident would stage it

Literally the entire case is like that it's really bizarre and the braindead PGP eat it up.
 
All the "evidence" is like that isn't it?

No footprints of the students leading to the bathmat = evidence they cleaned them up.

The kitchen knife doesn't match the wounds or imprint = evidence it was a second knife

Amanda didn't reveal any accurate information in the interrogation = evidence she was lying to cover it up

There's a break-in to the cottage = evidence the students are guilty since it must have been staged and only a resident would stage it

Literally the entire case is like that it's really bizarre and the braindead PGP eat it up.


Exactly.

And there was no reliable, credible DNA from either of the Bianchis in or near the murder scene either. Which obviously means that the cunning, evil, murdering pensioners carefully cleaned away their own DNA! And when questioned, the Bianchis said they spent the whole evening and night together alone in their apartment watching TV and sleeping. An obvious choreographed attempt to mislead the police!

The term "Bizarro World" comes to mind again and again when trying to evaluate the pro-guilt position............
 
These rhetorical riffs on your part are entertaining, they truly are.

Yet you've STILL not addressed LJ's issue. Sometimes it seems that all you have are these diversionary riffs - which actually do lighten the atmosphere around here, but it would perhaps be better if you dealt with the issue at hand.

Those who don't enjoy your talents for a turn of phrase might think you were avoiding issues.

Like naming one forensic-DNA expert who agrees with Dr. Stefanoni. One. You tried to slip Prof. Novelli in, but it turns out that Novelli agrees that multiple amplifications is proper protocol, something Dr. Stefanoni did not do.

You would have been better to sidetrack things into another diversionary rhetorical riff, than offer Novelli!

Hoots!

Obviously, people are happy with Stefanoni - except the perps! - as no-one feels moved enough to critique the Rome lab methods.
 
Vixen you boasted about how you always got to primary sources. What was the primary source for the claim that the murder scene was based on a staging from a halloween murder scene in the manga 'Blood: the first vampire'?

If you say you go to primary sources you should be able to reference them.
 
Let me assure you that when asked about previous convictions against AK and RS there is but one against AK...calunnia.

Soon to be set aside.

A small wager, Vixen? Tell you what...$10k you get if the calunnia charge stands, $1k I get if the calunnia charge is annulled. My $1k goes to charity.

Come...money and mouth.

I am 100% confident ECHR cannot overturn the calunnia and Italy will not. AIUI it is preparing a detailed response in submission. However, it would not be right or proper for me to take your money, not even for charity, although you are welcome to donate something to a particular charity I am involved in (PM me).

The idea of Amanda getting off scot free for her great wrong against Patrick, a wholly innocent man, the calumny of implicating him in an atrocious rape/murder simply because he is black, to protect her fellow murderer chum, Rudy, makes me feel sick to the heart, and would be an abomination and perversion of justice, so I will decline betting any money that might cause her or her ilk to think this behaviour is in any way acceptable. Thanks for the thought, all the same.
 
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Vixen you boasted about how you always got to primary sources. What was the primary source for the claim that the murder scene was based on a staging from a halloween murder scene in the manga 'Blood: the first vampire'?

If you say you go to primary sources you should be able to reference them.

I cannot (=shall not) reveal my source on this one.
 
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It is whack-a-mole, isn't it.

It's been said here a thousand times, and even on the hate sites, that no verdict is final until/unless signed off on by the Italian Supreme Court. All lower court verdicts are provisional.

You simply ignore this and return to "they were all three found guilty at trial." No they were not. Only Guede was found guilty "at trial", because the trial has three grades to it - a 1st grade trial, a 2nd grade appeal, and the Cassation verdict.

Indeed, when RS and AK stood provisionally convicted by Nencini's court - this was the reason all sides expressed that it was not double-jeopardy; because they'd not been convicted yet - not even by Massei, and not until an ISC panel said they were. Which in the case of RS and AK never happened.

Please drop these obvious lies of yours. You just keep reposting them as if it had not been explained. A hundred times.


It remains true: there is only one trial (and a continuation thereof in Italy on specific points of law appealed and allowed an extended hearing). It is a fact both these merits hearings (= trial) found the pair guilty as charged, based on the evidence before it. The trial was fair and proper, and Massei bent over backwards to accommodate the kids' submissions.

The Supreme Court overturning the verdict, when both the lower courts had decreed and upheld a 'guilty' verdict was perverse in the extreme.

Its MR is weak and defective. It errs in numerous legal ways.
 
All the "evidence" is like that isn't it?

No footprints of the students leading to the bathmat = evidence they cleaned them up.

The kitchen knife doesn't match the wounds or imprint = evidence it was a second knife

Amanda didn't reveal any accurate information in the interrogation = evidence she was lying to cover it up

There's a break-in to the cottage = evidence the students are guilty since it must have been staged and only a resident would stage it

Literally the entire case is like that it's really bizarre and the braindead PGP eat it up.

Far more logical is the local black guy who must have shimmied up a 12'4" wall without leaving a mark or shards of glass on the ground, overcome by uncontrollable lust, the way they do, murdering and sexually assaulting the occupant who failed to hear the loud crash of the boulder against the window and the shutters. He then carefully designs a burglary and rape scene, together with hand on wall in blood and footprint on bathmat with the flair of a theatre production manager. He scripts a knife wound with one from the left and one from the right.

How bonkers for four courts not to see this straight away, especially when you consider what a racist country Italy is! Obvious, innit?
 
Are you now claiming that the car was washed down with bleach destroying any DNA? If so, why no claims by the police of a strong odor of bleach? After all, the said they could smell it in his apartment. But, strangely, not in the cottage within hours of the alleged "clean up".

Were there no fingerprints or no identifiable fingerprints? Smudged, therefore unidentifiable, fingerprints are common to find as the prosecution expert, Privitera, testified.

No. The fact there was no DNA of Raff at all in his own car proves that lack of DNA is not 'proof of Raff's absence'.

Your Father Gill could have told you that.
 
Exactly.

And there was no reliable, credible DNA from either of the Bianchis in or near the murder scene either. Which obviously means that the cunning, evil, murdering pensioners carefully cleaned away their own DNA! And when questioned, the Bianchis said they spent the whole evening and night together alone in their apartment watching TV and sleeping. An obvious choreographed attempt to mislead the police!

The term "Bizarro World" comes to mind again and again when trying to evaluate the pro-guilt position............

I feel great pity for you.
 
Far more logical is the local black guy who must have shimmied up a 12'4" wall without leaving a mark or shards of glass on the ground, overcome by uncontrollable lust, the way they do, murdering and sexually assaulting the occupant who failed to hear the loud crash of the boulder against the window and the shutters. He then carefully designs a burglary and rape scene, together with hand on wall in blood and footprint on bathmat with the flair of a theatre production manager. He scripts a knife wound with one from the left and one from the right.

How bonkers for four courts not to see this straight away, especially when you consider what a racist country Italy is! Obvious, innit?

Yeah it's crazy to think the guy who left DNA in the victim's vagina, palm and footprints in her blood, in a cottage with a second story rock smashed window above climbable metal bars, with a history of carrying a knife while committing crimes and smashing second story windows before climbing into them up metal bars - might be responsible....really crazy to think that...on opposite day! :D
 
I am 100% confident ECHR cannot overturn the calunnia and Italy will not. AIUI it is preparing a detailed response in submission. However, it would not be right or proper for me to take your money, not even for charity, although you are welcome to donate something to a particular charity I am involved in (PM me).

The idea of Amanda getting off scot free for her great wrong against Patrick, a wholly innocent man, the calumny of implicating him in an atrocious rape/murder simply because he is black, to protect her fellow murderer chum, Rudy, makes me feel sick to the heart, and would be an abomination and perversion of justice, so I will decline betting any money that might cause her or her ilk to think this behaviour is in any way acceptable. Thanks for the thought, all the same.

What would the police have had to do before you agreed her statements were coerced? Thumbscrews? Just curious.
 
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Far more logical is the local black guy who must have shimmied up a 12'4" wall without leaving a mark or shards of glass on the ground, overcome by uncontrollable lust, the way they do, murdering and sexually assaulting the occupant who failed to hear the loud crash of the boulder against the window and the shutters. He then carefully designs a burglary and rape scene, together with hand on wall in blood and footprint on bathmat with the flair of a theatre production manager. He scripts a knife wound with one from the left and one from the right.

How bonkers for four courts not to see this straight away, especially when you consider what a racist country Italy is! Obvious, innit?

This is approaching psychosis in its obtuseness. Like a reoccurring nightmare of a trainwreck.
 
It remains true: there is only one trial (and a continuation thereof in Italy on specific points of law appealed and allowed an extended hearing). It is a fact both these merits hearings (= trial) found the pair guilty as charged, based on the evidence before it. The trial was fair and proper, and Massei bent over backwards to accommodate the kids' submissions.

"Bent over backwards"!? Is not a court required to receive appropriate submissions from parties which have standing? You make it seem like Massei had the option not to receive submissions, but deigned to lower himself to listen to anything the defence had to say!!!

Hoots!

The Supreme Court overturning the verdict, when both the lower courts had decreed and upheld a 'guilty' verdict was perverse in the extreme.
The Marasca/Bruno court showed how the "connective tissue" of the guilty verdict could not be sustained in law.

Chief of which was the way Nencini (and by extension Massei) handled the forensic-DNA evidence, where both courts elevated themselves as supra-experts over and above what independent experts might say.

Marasca/Bruno acknowledge that this is a thorny legal issue, because it seems that they agree with the former Chieffi panel, who in 2013 had (partially) overturned Hellmann's acquittals on the same sort of issue. IIRC Hellmann had abrogated his judicial responsibility by allowing Conti & Vecchiotti to make a de facto decision for him in the way Sample 36I was handled.

But conversely, Marasca/Bruno cites Italian case law (the cite is in the report) which suggests that when there are competing experts at trial who are saying opposite things - as inevitably happens - the judge simply cannot substitute himself as a judicial forensic-referee without some appeal to an independent voice.

Judge Massei refused to appoint an independent voice, and Nencini (acc. to Marasca) simply sided with Stefanoni over and against Conti-Vecchiotti with no appeal to a second independent voice - other than Nencini's own guesses as to what good forensic-DNA analysis should look like.

Me - I think Marasca/Bruno nailed the issue as to why both Massei and Nencini were defective judgments. As such Section 5 of the ISC was full value for exonerating the kids.

Instead of simply declaring your opposition, it would be nice if you actually quoted what you found so offensive.

Its MR is weak and defective. It errs in numerous legal ways.
It's laughable that you'd claim this, given that it is you who endlessly quote from it when you cherry-pick sentences out of context.

However, you still owe this thread at least one forensic-DNA expert who agrees with Stefanoni's work. No wonder Nencini was stuck with his own ignorance of expert things...... he couldn't think of one either.
 
I cannot (=shall not) reveal my source on this one.
You cannot because the source is propagating provable nonsense? Because you are embarrassed for accepting something as true that is false? Because you are worried you have accepted as true other things from what is now proven to be an unreliable source.
 
No. The fact there was no DNA of Raff at all in his own car proves that lack of DNA is not 'proof of Raff's absence'.

Your Father Gill could have told you that.


No, it shows that there was none of Raff's DNA on the places tested, not that there was "no DNA of Raff at all in his own car". Several places tested would not be expected to have DNA since they don't come into contact with the body like the clutch, brake and gas pedals, or floor mats unless Raff drove barefoot. The underside of the steering wheel shaft would also not come into contact with his body nor would the back rear seat. All those were places tested according to Prof. Potenza's notes. Additionally, they were not looking for DNA, they were looking for blood that might have been deposited from the bottom of shoes or clothing. See Dr. Potenza's report.

How do you explain no fingerprints, bloody shoeprints, palm prints, etc of either Knox or Sollecito in Meredith's room? Why was it only Guede who left all of these and not AK or RS? And please, don't resort to the "they cleaned it up" excuse.

You have not answered my question regarding the fingerprints on the lamp. Were there NO fingerprints or just UNIDENTIFIABLE due to poor quality prints?
 
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