General Holocaust denial discussion Part III

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Here we go with the stupid lies that say that Germans killed the Jewish workers because they don't want other people to see what they were doing what complete nonsense.
Why would the Germans care if anybody saw what they were doing? But now all of a sudden you're telling us that the Germans have a conscience,? All you holohoaxers state that the Germans were a killing machine, why would they care who saw them?

As part of his vilification of the Jews forced to work in various functionary roles in German camps, in this case the Sonderkommandos in death camps, HDenier has claimed that accounts of the periodic murder of Sonderkommando members is a stupid lie. HDenier offers nothing for us to consider but his bluster.

Below is a document concerning Majdanek from the resistance movement, written 23 September 1943, just before the Germans stopped using the Majdanek gas chambers to murder Jews. Before anyone goes off about Jewish liars and whatnot, it should be noted that the resistance was part of the Polish underground and indeed the document is written in Polish, not Yiddish, and concerns other topics besides the execution of Sonderkommando members (transfer and marking of prisoners, smuggling, etc); the execution of bathhouse and cremation workers is dealt with in point 3 (rough translation):
3. On 21.9.43 at 18 o'clock 23 persons were shot in Majdanek, personnel of the bath and the crematorium. There is an assumption that it's about destruction of witnesses.
In other words, 23 inmates who'd been forced laborers in the bathhouses (one of which was immediately adjacent the gas chamber bunker at Majdanek) and who carried out cremations, had been shot - and the resistance made the assumption that the shooting was to get rid of witnesses to gassings and disposal of corpses, exactly what HDenier calls "a stupid lie."

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From Banach, Grudzińska & Lenarczyk, The Prisoners of Majdanek, p 54
 
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I know, right?

My user title actually comes from the previous Part II version of this thread, when a denier upset about how thoroughly I was demolishing his arguments called me "Miss Elementary Teacher". He meant it as an insult, but it fit so well with what it felt like trying to baby-step deniers through the actual facts of the Holocaust that I adopted it.

Snake tong right?
 

the supposed gas van forgery, when you were ANTPogo, the Rauff letter I think? If so, that was great stuff - a complete schooling done methodically and with flair - and not leaving a single escape route open to the guy.
 
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This is very well stated IMO. Historians and other scholars routinely investigate the anomalies, conflicts between different pieces of evidence, and gaps - and just as routinely improve and revise their theories about what happened and why. There are among scholars constant debate and tension among competing explanations of historical events.

This is partly why deniers like HDenier carping about "the Holocaust narrative" rings so hollow: there's not one narrative, but there are competing and overlapping theories about the history, which are constantly being challenged, revised, improved - just like any period of history (here is a statement on "revisionist history" by James McPherson, appearing on the AHA website): .
Deniers of the Holocaust have historical negation and denial confused with the revision of historical understanding. At least HDenier has chosen his username aptly: his comments have nothing to do with the historical sciences and all to do with a political/ideological agenda which requires negation of historical work as part of its claims.
Jews being made into soap or ashtrays is a lie that keeps being told NOW in school classrooms. I certainly have a right to complain about that non historical fact...

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Exactly the same with Apollohoaxers, Flat Earthers, 9/11 hoaxers, Evolution deniers and Relativity deniers.
People can believe whatever they want, but it's disagreeing with the Holocaust that lands one in jail in Europe, why? Only this topic enrages people...Any time forums discuss it it seems the paid professional trolls come in and take over...and eventually get those people opposing the holohoax kicked out....free speech discussion of the holohoax? Not in your life...

When I am finally kicked out of this forum it will be an honor....
This is a SKEPTICS forum, what is the skepticism about the Holocaust for most of you? There is none..You've swallowed it hook line and sinker. Your only job is to stop others from exposing the lies and fraud associated with the holohoax narratives...

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Nice try your post quotes "the resistance made the assumption" bla,bla,bla, my assumption is their assumption was wrong......next

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Jews being made into soap or ashtrays is a lie that keeps being told NOW in school classrooms. I certainly have a right to complain about that non historical fact...
You have a right to complain about anything you want to; what will happen when you try claiming that the soap myth or shrunken heads or whatnot disproves the genocide is that people will refute you. If you got schools to teach what you want, it would be a far worse disservice to people than the woeful state of things now is, by the way.
 
Using the words "the assumption" in a court of law would get you laughed out of court. In court jargon that would be called hearsay...LOTS of assumptions are made with the holocaust narrative, I certainly can be a skeptic to those assumptions, that is my right, are you people skeptical to people that like to use assumptions? Hmmmmmm

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Nice try your post quotes "the resistance made the assumption" bla,bla,bla, my assumption is their assumption was wrong......next
But the resistance document also states that 23 members of the Sonderkommando (workers in the bathhouses and cremations) were shot - that's not an assumption. What's an assumption is the reason for the shooting of these workers.

Point 1. You were wrong to post that discussion of the murder of Sonderkommando members is a "stupid lie"; here's a document that reports "in real time" one such mass shooting.
Point 2. You have no basis to say that it is a "stupid lie" to say that the Sonderkommando members were shot to get rid of witnesses - only your belief; whereas I have a document from people close to the event and familiar with the camp making such an assumption.
 
Using the words "the assumption" in a court of law would get you laughed out of court.
The word "assumption" wasn't here used in a court of law but in a historical document - created at the time.

In court jargon that would be called hearsay...
No it wouldn't, because it isn't hearsay.

LOTS of assumptions are made with the holocaust narrative,
But not that these 23 people were shot: "On 21.9.43 at 18 o'clock 23 persons were shot in Majdanek, personnel of the bath and the crematorium."

No assumption, just a statement of what happened.

Then, as I wrote, what follows is an assumption made by the camp resistance:
There is an assumption that it's about destruction of witnesses.
By the way, how do you actually interpret this document? What do you think happened?
 
How about telling us the context of the shootings? You're making the assumption that they were killed to hide something evil. Could they have been shot for murder, rape some heinous criminal act? No, you make the assumption the were killed for bla, bla, bla, because your holohoax narrative expects it...nice try....

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People can believe whatever they want, but it's disagreeing with the Holocaust that lands one in jail in Europe, why? Only this topic enrages people...
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It's because it wasn't done when it could have saved the lives of millions.

Any time forums discuss it it seems the paid professional trolls come in and take over...and eventually get those people opposing the holohoax kicked out....
And your evidence for anyone getting paid to post here is....?

Good grief, there's 8 billion+ people on this planet and the only thing you can think of as a reason anyone would oppose your idiocy is because they get paid to do so speaks more to your shortcomings as a human being than it does to anyone else's motivations.

free speech discussion of the holohoax? Not in your life...
You're free to speak and everyone else is free to call you on the idiotic crap you say.

An internet forum is much like a persons living room. If you came into my house acting as you do here I'd show you the door and lock it behind you...but you wouldn't be denied free speech by my doing that.

When I am finally kicked out of this forum it will be an honor....
This is a SKEPTICS forum, what is the skepticism about the Holocaust for most of you? There is none..You've swallowed it hook line and sinker. Your only job is to stop others from exposing the lies and fraud associated with the holohoax narratives...

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Dismissing the Holocaust doesn't make you a skeptic. In fact the garbage you've spewed here and your inability to respond to what others have posted to counter your ignorant rants make you a fool, not a skeptic.

Applying your logic would result in people disbelieving the earth is round, 911 was a terrorist attack by ideologically driven Muslims and all manor of failed conspiracies...because according to you, that's what skepticism really is.
 
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People can believe whatever they want, but it's disagreeing with the Holocaust that lands one in jail in Europe, why?

False.

Not all European countries have law about it, and not all cases would land you in prison.

Only this topic enrages people...

People claiming the Holocaust was a lie does enrage people. It enrages people because the claim is a lie propagated by racist nazi apologists who want their fair share of dead Jews. It is not the only topic that enrages people. For example I get equally offended by homophobes, creationists, morons claiming we didn't go to the moon, flat earth idiots, drooling flatheads telling lies about 9/11, all sorts of stuff

Any time forums discuss it it seems the paid professional trolls come in and take over

Got proof of that?

No-one is paying me to call people nazi apologists and point out their lies and hypocrisy. I do it for fun. Go ahead and find my paymaster, call me a liar, make my day.

A lot of people here were members long before you showed up and started stirring the pot. Given that you seem to make money out of your campaign of hate and that there seems to be an organised campaign between you and your other trolls from the same town, that smacks of extreme hypocrisy.

...and eventually get those people opposing the holohoax kicked out....free speech discussion of the holohoax? Not in your life...

You're still here. I won't cry any tears if you get banned, and if you do get banned it won't be because of your offensive racist argument, and anti-Semitic filth, it will be because you didn't obey the forum rules.

When I am finally kicked out of this forum it will be an honor....

And a joy for the rest of us.

This is a SKEPTICS forum, what is the skepticism about the Holocaust for most of you? There is none..You've swallowed it hook line and sinker. Your only job is to stop others from exposing the lies and fraud associated with the holohoax narratives...

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Skepticism does not automatically invalidate the claim about which you are skeptical. You are skeptical of the holocaust. We are skeptical about your claims. That's how it works. You discuss the relative merits of your argument. Your argument seems mostly to involve gloating over dead Jews and at the same time denying there were any. Asking a question about something does not automatically mean that the answer you want is right, it means you want to know the answer.

Pointing out your fallacies, falsehoods and the errors in your gratuitously offensive world view isn't anyone's job here - it's a duty and a pleasure.
 
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How about telling us the context of the shootings?
How about you telling us, since I asked you?

What I will say for now is that your calling discussion of the murder of Sonderkommando members "stupid lies," in this case for Majdanek, has shown to be far wide of the mark.

You're making the assumption that they were killed to hide something evil.
No, I am not; the camp resistance is making that assumption. You really need to read what's posted more carefully.

I know from testimony of Muhsfeldt and others the kind of work they did – so you are making the assumption, contrary to evidence, that they didn’t do what I claim.


Could they have been shot for murder, rape some heinous criminal act?
23 members of the Sonderkommando? You tell us. Is there a record of a mass rape, for example, around that time by closely guarded SK workers? You do realize that armed SS guards watched over inmates at Majdanek? I am making an assumption, indeed, that the camp underground heard no reason for the murders of SK members and thus, based on what the activists were hearing and already knew about the camp, concluded that the SK members were murdered to silence them. I draw this conclusion this based on the document itself and my general knowledge of the camp. Unlike you, I use the evidence to reach my conclusions.

You see, there's other evidence about this issue. For one thing, Eric Muhsfeldt, the cremation head, testified that SK crews were rotated - and Russian prisoners were brought in to staff his crew around the time nearly all Jews in the camp were murdered. The SK crews were periodically replaced - the first crew (Jews) was replaced by Russians in March 1942; the Russian crew was replaced later by French and German Jews - and then the last crew (also Russians) was brought in sometime after late September 1943, when this shooting occurred. Also, Kapo, Ernst Fischer, testified that sometimes SK workers were gassed. (Mailänder, Female SS Guards and Workaday Violence, p 176). Also, there is the fact of the timing of this particular mass shooting, which was at the time of the last reported mass gassing of Jews. (Kranz, The Extermination of Jews at Majdanek Concentration Camp, p 58). Further, we have evidence (this is reviewed in Gideon Greif's book, The Wept Without Tears) that the Germans cycled SK crews, murdering each in turn, which is what Greif shows happened at Auschwitz. So a basic practice with regard to SK crews was to kill the members from time to time. A reasonable interpretation of all this is that this crew was murdered and then replaced.

I don't know of a good reason to reject the assumption of the reason for the murder made by the camp underground, so I consider it to be a reasonable inference, not definitive.

As to your speculation, it is not only ridiculous (that crews of two dozen SK workers would periodically, say, commit mass rape and thus be shot) - there is nothing I know of to support it.

No, you make the assumption the were killed for bla, bla, bla, because your holohoax narrative expects it...nice try....
You keep missing the point. I suggest you re-read Tomtomkent's recent posts slowly and carefully, where he writes about developing the best explanations to explain the evidence we have about a historical issue. My point is that your dismissal of discussion of such murders as "stupid lies" is knee-jerk negationism; rather, there is reason to discuss these murders as 1) historical occurrences and 2) for the purpose of eliminating witnesses. We have a document suggesting - not proving - this. What do you have? What is your evidence-based explanation for this document?
 
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HDenier said:
You're making the assumption that they were killed to hide something evil.

Seriously, he's making a stink about this? It's freaking common sense that the SS killed inmates to reduce the possibility of their secrets coming out. Belsen commandant Josef Kramer pretty much confirms it

http://bergenbelsen.co.uk/pages/Timeline/TimelinePULetterKramer010345.html

Josef Kramer said:
The removal of these internees is particularly urgent for the reason that several concentration camp Jews have discovered among the camp internees their nearest relations - some their parents, some their brothers and sisters. Also for purely political reasons - I mention in this connection the high death figure in this camp at present - it is essential that these Jews disappear from here as soon as possible. -

Different camp from Majdanek, to be sure. But it's not hard to imagine that Kramer's recommendations were standard procedure for the purpose of secrecy. It's another reason the SS evacuated Auschwitz in the face of the impending Soviet attack, other than continuing to make use of slave labor. And why the SS in the Radom district issued orders to clear prisons of Polish Political prisoners and Jewish slave laborers in the armaments industry to stop them from falling into Soviet hands and "blabbing", so to speak.

HDenier's making mountains out of molehills. Pretty much every government today practices the concept of "Plausible Deniability", but it never occurs to him that his heroes would too.
 
Seriously, he's making a stink about this? It's freaking common sense that the SS killed inmates to reduce the possibility of their secrets coming out. Belsen commandant Josef Kramer pretty much confirms it

http://bergenbelsen.co.uk/pages/Timeline/TimelinePULetterKramer010345.html

Different camp from Majdanek, to be sure. But it's not hard to imagine that Kramer's recommendations were standard procedure for the purpose of secrecy. It's another reason the SS evacuated Auschwitz in the face of the impending Soviet attack, other than continuing to make use of slave labor.
Yup, and when evacuating Auschwitz, the camp SS tried to discover members of the Sonderkommando, who in the chaos had blended in with other prisoners. Probably not to award them medals - which is about as likely as 23 SK members at Majdanek committing rape simultaneously, so HDenier will no doubt argue that the SS was looking for SK members to hand out their awards!

One point made above is that killing so-called "bearers of secrets" was standard operating procedure for the Nazis, so when we have evidence that conforms to this standard procedure in various places, we can look at the individual pieces of evidence in the light of general practices.

HDenier's making mountains out of molehills.
That's giving him credit: he seems rather to be saying, "nah, nah, nah," to shut out anything that doesn't conform to his beliefs and which he doesn't want to hear.
 
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HDenier you asked me what I questioned - I answered your query but you didn't respond to mine - here it is again, in case you forgot. If you 'forget' again I'll repeat it.

I do have questions like why do the deniers ignore all the non Jews killed by the Nazis?

Soviet civilians: around 7 million (including 1.3 Soviet Jewish civilians, who are included in the 6 million figure for Jews)

Soviet prisoners of war: around 3 million (including about 50,000 Jewish soldiers)

Non-Jewish Polish civilians: around 1.8 million (including between 50,000 and 100,000 members of the Polish elites)

Serb civilians (on the territory of Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina): 312,000

People with disabilities living in institutions: up to 250,000

Roma (Gypsies): 196,000–220,000

Jehovah's Witnesses: Around 1,900

Repeat criminal offenders and so-called asocials: at least 70,000

German political opponents and resistance activists in Axis-occupied territory: undetermined

Homosexuals: hundreds, possibly thousands (possibly also counted in part under the 70,000 repeat criminal offenders and so-called asocials noted above)

Why do these people not matter to the deniers?

https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10008193

There you go. lol
 
Is that your goal here?
That will be your goal. I already sense the hidden anger behind your post
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