Why doesn't the US do something about mass shootings?

truethat said:
Great post! And when the Founding Fathers were designing the Bill of Rights they looked at the flaws in existing government systems and designed fail safes flaws to avoid those flaws.

People have a tendency to pretend that the world has changed so much, but it really hasn't. The government is still trying to carve it's way into an Oligarchy just like many governments have tried before them.
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Corrected your slip.

I guess the odd thing for outsiders is the religious awe given to what is clearly a flawed bit of 'legislation'. No one else can really believe people genuinely believe carrying a dangerous weapon is a right, just because a rather difficult to understand sentence from a group of DWM who also allowed slavery said something like that. The Uk of course continually alters bits of its constitution. The UK also had subsidiary states with their own laws and institutions. Remember Canada was only given full independence in 1982.
 
The vast majority of mass shootings in the US are carried out by "people of color". Any laws aimed at curbing such events will disproportionally affect members of minority communities and tha's raaaaacisss. This is why it is no longer a crime to piss in public in NYC. Disparate Impact.
 
Planigale said:
I think it is worth considering how Northern Ireland coped with decades of intensive terrorism, people continued to live a normal life, gun ownership remained restricted, many people came strongly anti-gun, anti-military.
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Many civilians were also killed.

Seems an imperfect solution, to just let violent people do what they want and just grumble about it.
 
Did mass shootings have an impact on US growth and development?





Trying desperately, and vainly, to get on topic....
 
Amongst all this fawning adoration and USAian exceptionalism is anyone interested in addressing the almost uniquely USAian problem of semi-random mass shootings?
 
catsmate said:
Amongst all this fawning adoration and USAian exceptionalism is anyone interested in addressing the almost uniquely USAian problem of semi-random mass shootings?
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Again this is not fawning and adoration. Once again. I have yet to be wrong about Non Americans being able to discuss this without their panties getting in a knot. LOL Thanks.

The point of the segue, had you read the rest of the thread, is why the Bill of Rights are considered so sacrosanct in the US which hinders those trying to get gun control in place.

Many of those who believe in American Exceptionalism are not only cynical about the US Government, they also feel that messing with the Bill of Rights in any way will ultimately lead to the collapse of the infrastructure of the US.

They equate the success of the US with the Bill of Rights. They feel that what "makes America great" is the Bill of Rights.

So it's important to understand how deeply ingrained this thinking is in the psyche of many Americans if you want to change anything.

Yelling at them that they are stupid and should change their minds only gets them to cling more strongly to their guns.

Example

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2009/09/the_lefts_new_enemy_tenthers.html
 
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truethat said:
Again this is not fawning and adoration. Once again. I have yet to be wrong about Non Americans being able to discuss this without their panties getting in a knot. LOL Thanks.

The point of the segue, had you read the rest of the thread, is why the Bill of Rights are considered so sacrosanct in the US which hinders those trying to get gun control in place.

Many of those who believe in American Exceptionalism are not only cynical about the US Government, they also feel that messing with the Bill of Rights in any way will ultimately lead to the collapse of the infrastructure of the US.

They equate the success of the US with the Bill of Rights. They feel that what "makes America great" is the Bill of Rights.

So it's important to understand how deeply ingrained this thinking is in the psyche of many Americans if you want to change anything.

Yelling at them that they are stupid and should change their minds only gets them to cleave more strongly to their guns.

Example

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2009/09/the_lefts_new_enemy_tenthers.html
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Who cares?

Seriously. You are bound to China and have no say in Europe. Get over yourself
 
truethat said:
Again this is not fawning and adoration. Once again. I have yet to be wrong about Non Americans being able to discuss this without their panties getting in a knot. LOL Thanks.

The point of the segue, had you read the rest of the thread, is why the Bill of Rights are considered so sacrosanct in the US which hinders those trying to get gun control in place.

Many of those who believe in American Exceptionalism are not only cynical about the US Government, they also feel that messing with the Bill of Rights in any way will ultimately lead to the collapse of the infrastructure of the US.

They equate the success of the US with the Bill of Rights. They feel that what "makes America great" is the Bill of Rights.

So it's important to understand how deeply ingrained this thinking is in the psyche of many Americans if you want to change anything.

Yelling at them that they are stupid and should change their minds only gets them to cleave more strongly to their guns.

Example

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2009/09/the_lefts_new_enemy_tenthers.html
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So that's a no then.
:rolleyes:
 
cullennz said:
Who cares?

Seriously. You are bound to China and have no say in Europe. Get over yourself
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I care. And I thought you cared because you wanted to know why the US can't do anything about mass shootings.

In order to understand the difficulty in achieving this you need to understand why Americans (even those who want gun control) are so nervous about messing with the Bill of Rights.

So first up, when it comes to gun control, many people don't understand the Gun Lobby's interpretation of protection from Government Tyranny. (We've gone over that already.)

So we "get" that it's in the Bill of Rights. So how important are the Bill of Rights in the US?

This is why I was bringing up the discussion about Brain Drain. Despite all the reasons everyone lists about what is wrong with the US, the country is still the number one destination for immigrants. And not just REFUGEE immigrants. Brain Drain immigrants that represent the most educated, most talented, most innovative people in a country. In other words the BRIGHTEST AND BEST AND MOST EDUCATED. Think about that. If anyone should be able to see the reality, they should.

Why are they flocking to the US? I've asked this over and over and over again.

It's not just about MONEY. Plenty of countries offer money and Dubai actually offers more money. There's something about the Mythology of Founding Fathers and creating a free inclusive society in which anyone can succeed. The "American Dream."

As someone pointed out before, that's not actually the reality for many minorities in this country. And as you pointed out yourself the reality has been pretty damning when it comes to slavery, Native Americans etc.

And yet that "Dream" still has an alluring appeal to the rest of the world. Not everyone of course. But you have to consider that if it's appealing to the rest of the world that doesn't even live here yet, imagine the mythology these Americans who do live here still believe?

This explains a LOT of the Trump supporters, the cognitive dissonance of pretending that if America "makes itself great again" it will mean that it was this greatness that they speak of, even though, in reality it was NEVER GREAT.

It's a fantasy.
So this is what we're up against in changing policies in this country on top of the legal dynamics.
 
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They aren't flocking to the US unless you have figures.

And no one dreams of living in your dream country when you get strip search American Muslims
 
truethat said:
I care. And I thought you cared because you wanted to know why the US can't do anything about mass shootings.

In order to understand the difficulty in achieving this you need to understand why Americans (even those who want gun control) are so nervous about messing with the Bill of Rights.

So first up, when it comes to gun control, many people don't understand the Gun Lobby's interpretation of protection from Government Tyranny. (We've gone over that already.)

So we "get" that it's in the Bill of Rights. So how important are the Bill of Rights in the US?

This is why I was bringing up the discussion about Brain Drain. Despite all the reasons everyone lists about what is wrong with the US, the country is still the number one destination for immigrants. And not just REFUGEE immigrants. Brain Drain immigrants that represent the most educated, most talented, most innovative people in a country. In other words the BRIGHTEST AND BEST AND MOST EDUCATED. Think about that. If anyone should be able to see the reality, they should.

Why are they flocking to the US? I've asked this over and over and over again.

It's not just about MONEY. Plenty of countries offer money and Dubai actually offers more money. There's something about the Mythology of Founding Fathers and creating a free inclusive society in which anyone can succeed. The "American Dream."

As someone pointed out before, that's not actually the reality for many minorities in this country. And as you pointed out yourself the reality has been pretty damning when it comes to slavery, Native Americans etc.

And yet that "Dream" still has an alluring appeal to the rest of the world. Not everyone of course. But you have to consider that if it's appealing to the rest of the world that doesn't even live here yet, imagine the mythology these Americans who do live here still believe?

This explains a LOT of the Trump supporters, the cognitive dissonance of pretending that if America "makes itself great again" it will mean that it was this greatness that they speak of, even though, in reality it was NEVER GREAT.

It's a fantasy. But fantasies have powerful holds over people.

So this is what we're up against in changing policies in this country on top of the legal dynamics.
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Wow. What a Gish Gallop this post is. Amazing.
 
cullennz said:
They aren't flocking to the US unless you have figures.

And no one dreams of living in your dream country when you get strip search American Muslims
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I've already posted the figures several time. The US is the number one destination for Brain Drain around the world. The US is also the number one destination for immigrants in the Western World.

And yes, they do. That's why I keep using the word cognitive dissonance. Try reading what I'm ACTUALLY WRITING instead of just arguing about things I'm not saying.

You yourself made a very interesting point earlier when you compared the Bill of Rights to the Ten Commandments.

One of the things that I learned in my graduate studies is that most people misinterpret the definition of the word MYTHOLOGY. They tend to think of it to mean "something that isn't true."

But it's a little more nuanced that that. For example Harry Potter is a fantasy not a myth. Star Wars touches on mythological elements but it's a fantasy not a myth.

The difference between a fantasy and mythology is that with a mythology "at some point people believed it was TRUE."

Mythology has a strong pull on people in a way that fantasy does not. Even when people know that the myth is not true, it still has a little bit of power over them.


Take a look at this excerpt.

I can't copy and paste it, but it's on page xii Introduction and starts with the paragraph that says "This is why, in part, myths remain so critical to contemporary political debates......."

https://books.google.com/books?id=n...contemporary political debates.......&f=false


If you are going to take on the Bill of Rights in this country you have to address the mythology associated with them. And realize that despite all evidence to the contrary, many people believe in this myth.

And this is why comparing the US with other countries that have better gun control laws does very little to sway the gun lobby to shift their position into a reasonable, rational discussion.

Again, understanding something is not the same thing as agreeing with it. But if you don't understand it, you can't change anything.
 
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truethat said:
I've already posted the figures several time. The US is the number one destination for Brain Drain around the world. The US is also the number one destination for immigrants in the Western World.

And yes, they do. That's why I keep using the word cognitive dissonance. Try reading what I'm ACTUALLY WRITING instead of just arguing about things I'm not saying.

You yourself made a very interesting point earlier when you compared the Bill of Rights to the Ten Commandments.

One of the things that I learned in my graduate studies is that most people misinterpret the definition of the word MYTHOLOGY. They tend to think of it to mean "something that isn't true."

But it's a little more nuanced that that. For example Harry Potter is a fantasy not a myth. Star Wars touches on mythological elements but it's a fantasy not a myth.

The difference between a fantasy and mythology is that with a mythology "at some point people believed it was TRUE."

Mythology has a strong pull on people in a way that fantasy does not. Even when people know that the myth is not true, it still has a little bit of power over them.


Take a look at this excerpt.

I can't copy and paste it, but it's on page xii Introduction and starts with the paragraph that says "This is why, in part, myths remain so critical to contemporary political debates......."

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=11437262


If you are going to take on the Bill of Rights in this country you have to address the mythology associated with them. And realize that despite all evidence to the contrary, many people believe in this myth.

And this is why comparing the US with other countries that have better gun control laws does very little to sway the gun lobby to shift their position into a reasonable, rational discussion.

Again, understanding something is not the same thing as agreeing with it. But if you don't understand it, you can't change anything.
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You are arguing fluff.

Hate to break it to you but America isn't looked upon with the same reverance as you.

Most countries just look at it sideways and go with the flow
 
I'm actually not. I'm pointing out something intelligent and extremely insightful. Yet because you can't get past the whole, "you think America is awesome bahhhhhhhH!" nonsense, you can't grasp what I'm saying at all.

Read it again later I guess. Hopefully when you can approach it logically and objectively you will be able to see what I'm saying.
 
While some people feel that this has been a derail from the OP topic, I tend to disagree. I think the last couple of pages and the perspective that Truethat provides gives us a glimpse into why the gun crime situation is not going to get solved any time soon.

A lot of Americans are fed a patriotic diet from birth, that the US is exceptionally different from other countries in a good way. That the freedoms, opportunities, lifestyle etc. are unique to US. When a lot of the citizens don't travel much out of the country and see the world for what it is, they come to believe what they are told at every turn.

As such, when discussing gun crime they tend to turn to American Exceptionalism. Arguments such as 'You need to make sacrifices to maintain the level of freedom the US has', 'Our gun crime problem is completely unique since we are a unique nation', 'Our growth is dependent on our freedoms. Take away one freedom and then where do we go from there?' ad nauseum. As long as citizens of the US remain firm on their belief that the US is singularly unique, I'm not sure how much can change.
 
Dipayan said:
While some people feel that this has been a derail from the OP topic, I tend to disagree. I think the last couple of pages and the perspective that Truethat provides gives us a glimpse into why the gun crime situation is not going to get solved any time soon.

A lot of Americans are fed a patriotic diet from birth, that the US is exceptionally different from other countries in a good way. That the freedoms, opportunities, lifestyle etc. are unique to US. When a lot of the citizens don't travel much out of the country and see the world for what it is, they come to believe what they are told at every turn.

As such, when discussing gun crime they tend to turn to American Exceptionalism. Arguments such as 'You need to make sacrifices to maintain the level of freedom the US has', 'Our gun crime problem is completely unique since we are a unique nation', 'Our growth is dependent on our freedoms. Take away one freedom and then where do we go from there?' ad nauseum. As long as citizens of the US remain firm on their belief that the US is singularly unique, I'm not sure how much can change.
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Thank you! :thumbsup::D


That's what I have been trying to point out. If people could realize what I have been saying for days "That understanding something is not the same thing as agreeing with it." then more productive conversations could happen.

I personally do not agree with the sentiments that I have been discussing. (As I have pointed out repeatedly) but I can surely tell you that the gun lobby DOES. And if you want to change something you have to meet them WHERE THEY THINK. Not where you think. They will never come over to the way you think. If they did, you wouldn't need to have the conversation in the first place.


A key factor in this discussion is that when it comes up people revert to American Bashing instead of trying to actually answer the questions. Once that starts the American patriot gun lobby will disregard everything you are trying to say.


I tried to pop in a few interesting unknowns here and there that are helpful. For example in class when I address the issues when people compare the continent of Africa to North America I point out all the "port cities" in the US and how lush and fertile the US is which made agriculture grow. The fact that we're bounded by the three bodies of water and the top has Lake Michigan and the Mississippi runs through it. Water is needed to grow crops and water is needed to TRADE. Our ability to grow agriculture made us be able to Trade and grow economically.

I point out how the use of Pirates helped us grow. I point out that we were isolated from much of the damage in World Wars because they didn't happen on our land. I point out that the US doesn't have an official language and that we basically took a huge chunk of Spanish speaking territories.

The answer to the question "Why did the US grow so quickly" ultimately boils down to LUCK and (as I pointed out before) Brain Drain. We didn't build this country from within. We had people coming here from all over developing it. And the other important issue is that America is forward thinking. Meaning we tend not to look into the past. It's interesting how many Non Americans bring up slavery and Native Americans.

Most Americans I know rarely bring up 911 in their daily lives. It's always fascinated me that in other parts of the world people are still fighting over decades old controversy. Americans look forward and even ignore our own flaws in history. We tell people to "get over it." (Here's a funny clip by Louie C.K. that is an example of that) When is the last time you've seen Americans commemorate Hiroshima? We leave it in the past and move forward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMLJZAFvcok

I compare this to Germany and how fast it's economy has grown because it's also a country that doesn't WANT to focus on its past because of Nazis. In my discussions I with pro gun people, I point out that what made America great is that we were not burdened by years of history and disputes so we look to the future and not to the past. And that's why with gun control the solution is to look to the FUTURE. What FUTURE America do you want to see? How can we use the Founding Fathers foresight to solve this problem? "Well Regulated"

Technology has grown with the development of weapons, but technology has ALSO grown with the development of the internet and the ability to regulate gun buys in a very easy way through a database.
 
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