Continuation Part 22: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Curt Knox confirmed he hired Gogerty-Marriott within two days of his sprog being arrested.

Stefanoni used up all of the LC sample as there were only five cells of Mez retrieved, compared to hundreds for Amanda. The defence forensic experts were there. Torre for Raff witnessed the procedure and the subsequent result and there is no doubt the DNA found on the knife was Mez'. His whinging that because the amount of material was scant therefore it should be disregarded is weasally defence reasoning.

As for the bra clasp. Clearly the assumption was it was made of stainless steel. OK, so it was tin/iron which rusted quickly in the solution. However, the DNA test had been done and verified by the defence, hence there was no requisition to keep repeating the test. Fingerprints are only ever done once. Fingerprint analysis gives ID with just eighteen points of 'compatibility', yet no-one ever challenges fingerprint evidence. Yet DNA analysis is compatible on billions to one against it being any other individual, millions to one more chance of accuracy than a fingerprint.

Yes, Filomena was 'allowed to rummage around' because Amanda and Raff (who where legally upheld to be at the murder scene by Massei, Nencini and Marasca) failed to report a murder/accident/death. If they had been decent citizens, they would have called for assistnace, reported the death, or suspected death, and thus the police would have known to immediately seal off the crime scene.

Section 10 of Marasca is a reiteration of their verdict. Therefore, the penultimate section, Section 9 is ipso facto the conclusion, with all the previous section the discussion of the main issues leading up to it.

Given that some of the points are highly original (for example, Amanda's calumny about Patrick being her covering up for Rudy, to fool the neighbours who might have seen a Black guy leaving the cottage, according to Marasca) and the fact they found of Amanda washing off Mez's blood and shedding epithial [_sp?]cells caused by rubbing her hands, it is obviously not so that Section 9 'is just a synopsis of all the other findings of previous courts''.

If that was the case, there would have been a following section saying why they disagreed with each of the points in Section 9, but there was not.

Do look up 'report writing' if you are not sure of a report layout.

Nice evasions. I write something which proves that Novelli actually did not support Stefanoni, such that when Nencini quoted it he should have acquitted, and you ignore it completely by equating fingerprint evidence with forensic-DNA evidence.

That one is a laugher.

Remember, the original question was : name one independent forensic-DNA expert who agrees with Stefanoni's work? You provided Novelli, not independent and he still says the analysis should have had multiple amplifications.

This thread is still waiting for an answer. Rather than these evasions.
 
..... and there, folks, you have your incompetent investigation, which Vixen says should not be a grounds for acquittal.

The whole case was plagued by these investigative "hunches" that miraculously led to "evidence". The lone knife, plucked by instinct from a drawer at considerable distance from the crime-scene ranks as one of the grandest investigative hunches since the Nazis blamed Marinus van der Lubbe for the Reichstag fire.

Think about it - of all the knives back at the cottage which were handy, of the knives Raffaele was known to routinely carry; Exhibit 36 was the lone one ever tested or investigated.

Or as Vixen might put it - the kitchen knife was not on trial, Amanda and Raffaele were. So just accept it - that knife was the murder weapon because cops don't lie about hunches.


Stefanoni as an extremely experienced DNA tester (having volunteered to help identify the tsunami victims in 2004) would have known it was a tiny sample. She identified at most five cells.

Police are highly trained to be observant. Met police employ some specialists with a 1/100 of the population ability of having seen a face once, never forget it. The police team who went to Raff's flat knew it was a large knife wound so it's not so surprising their eyes were drawn to the big shiny one on top, freshly scrubbed. And, hey, they were right.
 
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Really? Try to give a few examples and show me the relevant court records to make your point, and please don't come up with something like "What she wrote doesn't match with what was written by Nadeau or Follain or [add any other of the "true crime" writers here] or it doesn't match with some newspaper article. This case was tried in a court of law, so I think all that matters are the court document for things regarding the crime and the trial, and maybe perhaps some of the Italian reporting when it comes down to the "history" of this judicial mess...

As I wrote, there is only one major mistake in WtBH, when it comes to the court records, but I guess one can find many, if one takes the Daily Fail or anti-Knox blogs and books as a source...


I don't think that making up things just to have something to write about, is a kind of "writing style", and the "pithy way of summing things up in one or two sentences" you like, is just another kind of "lying by omission".


Of course I can, how on earth could writing and publishing this book could have gotten her "out of her murder charge"? Given that a certain prosecutor in Perugia hands out lawsuits against everyone who dares to criticise him like candy and what happened after the publication of "Honor Bound" (to my knowledge that trial and the one against a certain blogger are the only ones that are still ongoing...), Amanda Knox must have been aware that the book would only earn her another lawsuit. It's interesting that a suit against WtBH wasn't filed given the above, and even if one would see the re-publication in March 2015 as a new start for the statute of limitations, I think it's save to say that some people's dreams about a suit against the book finally causing more prison time for Knox and her financial ruin, are just that, dreams...

Could you give an example of how exactly Amanda Knox "smears many decent upright honest people"?
Calling a spade a spade isn't "smearing", and I still have to find one "decent upright honest" person involved in the investigation and persecution of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito...


Could you please explain the highlighted part? What are you trying to say here? :confused:

The funny thing is, that Liz Houle's book is just what you are labeling WtBH. Liz Houle is lying and making up things to manipulate public opinion against Knox, she is smearing each and everyone who dares to defend her (that is including her various blog posts like this one: Full Story: Peter, Paul, and Amanda Knox – Manipulating the Murder of Meredith Kercher), just to make money (instead of getting her off a murder charge, AFAIK Liz houle isn't axxused of murder so I think the monetary motive is her main one...)

I don't have a copy of WTBH to compare - goodness knows what happened to it.

As the legal process had not completed, it was obviously an attempt to pervert justice and a cynical attempt to get the 'Innocence Projects' behind her.

It really doesn't matter what Liz Houle does, she is not accused of murder and rape.
 
Knox wrote that at one point in her prison-time she realized she was being prosecuted by a madman. If one believes Mignini is decent and upright, then that might be taken as a smear.

If one believes he's a conspiratoral-minded nutcase, calling him a "madman" is perhaps the most gentle of terms.


The victim-warriors are perhaps the weirdest. MOO.

A criminal always does call the police foul names. In the UK, it is common for them to have 'ACAB' tattooed on their fingers ('all coppers are bastards').

No surprise, a psycho caught bang to rights by an astute prosecutor would call him names.

Who are 'victim warriors'? I don't know any.
 
It was bent? How and by whom? I love a good ct, is your's "good"? Guede's request for "revisione" has a snowball's chance in hell, especially if one goes with the "It was thoroughly bent" theory, I'm keeping the typo. ;)


It's "Francesca Torricelli" just for the record, and her testimony was taken into account by judge Hellmann and Novelli was far from being ignored by judge Hellmann. Chieffi sent the case back down, because he simply accepted what Galati has written, without any knowledge of the actual facts, 36I and Aviello might have had merit being procedural points, for the rest, like restoring Curatolo's and Quintavalle's credibility, Chieffi overstepped his mandate and went into fact finding mode, something that isn't the job of the CSC... (It's interesting that PGP and PIP agree when it comes to this. ;) )

Judge Nencini was all but ordered to find them guilty to avoid the opening of Pandora's box, judge Hellmann kept close by upholding the calunnia conviction for Knox, and Nencini just followed the orders he was given. His remark about his court not being a Taliban court made clear that he was presiding a show trial and had no problems with it...

Who "bought" Marasca? What about the other four?


Where do you get those "two and a half days" from?
On March 25th, 2015 prosecution, civil parties and Knox' lawyers were heard, IIRC Sollecito's lawyers spoke for about two hours on March 27th, 2015, before the court started deliberations...

Do you have any evidence for your claim that Bongiorno paid Gill?

If the jursidiction exists - and it does in Italy - Rudy can file the petition, as he has done.

Marasca's MR seems to be in contradiction of Giordano so it appears to meet the section which specifies a conviction can be appealed against such an occurrence.

So much for the PIP claim that 'Marasca was "stuck" with the verdicts of other courts'.

Four of the five parties had just 20" each over two days to submit their skeleton arguments, Bongiono's stretched over two and a half days. IIRC Thursday, Friday and Monday (half day). You say it was 'only two and a half hours, or, 150"; how is that in any way equitable with 20"?


Marasca was clearly bought by its lobbyists and probably by the Bongiorno defence. Marasca was retired immediately after, Bruno has been moved to a desk job, and is said to be suffering from psychological problems, and in any case, politician judges are now barred from this sort of case.


We know Bongiorno paid Gill, because (a) he's hardly going to do it for nothing and (b), that's her Modus Operandi (cf: Aviello and Kokomani).
 
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One only has to glance at the strange, super-colloquial wording employed by Houle, coupled with the vindictive bitter tone, to realise beyond any question that a) this is not in any way a serious, credible piece of work, and b) this is not in any way even pretending to be an objective analysis.

It's a nasty piece of gutter journalism in the clickbait style, written by a dreadfully confused, conflicted and biassed author who also has no discernible talent for writing reportage. Possibly even worse than vdL's horrible little effort :)

Takes one to know one, eh ;):thumbsup:
 
Just en passant*..... isn't it interesting how pro-guilt commentators have adopted the twin mantras that Hellmann's court and Marasca's court were corrupt and corrupted to reach their verdicts?

(All of which, it goes without saying, is devoid of even the merest hint of supporting evidence, let alone anything remotely resembling proof......)


* Or ohimennen, if one prefers :D

Wrong! It should be ohimennessä. Like Latin, you must use the correct case ending, dearie. :D:thumbsup:
 
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I wonder if Rudy's appeal could blow up in his face. Does anyone know if on appeal Rudy may get time added? It's certainly possible in many countries.

If so, he's playing with fire.
 
I believe I can spot an English influence in the photoshopped pics at the weird Houle piece you link to.They have a certain quality about them, the same style pics I have seen at social media sites and created by a known ' clever silly'. Who knew this Mensa member was so talented? And she sure does spread herself about! ;)

I take it you failed the test ;) I wish you well.
 
That comment of vdL's below the review is eerily reminiscent of the approach (and even the vocabulary) adopted by our very own Volpe Cattiva in these pages :p

When you have to highlight your adverbs in bold, you know it's because you overuse them so one has to somehow emphasise them in another way.
 
Holding any form of belief in the validity or credibility of astrology is an instant disqualification for any claim to being a sceptical or critical thinker. End of story.

You'd think that anyone who purports to be a serious investigative journalist (or, for that matter, anyone positing themselves as a serious online commentator on a criminal case....) would actually want to dissociate themselves from such arrant nonsense as astrology. The apparent fact that certain people actively want to broadcast their faith in that sort of medieval claptrap (which, it goes without saying, has repeatedly been conclusively exposed as entirely unscientific nonsense in proper trials), while at the same time want to be taken seriously as objective, rational commentators on the Knox/Sollecito case, is - needless to say - a gigantic red flag.


So I had a passing interest in it once. Big deal. I was merely pointing out that astrology is a popular past-time/interest and even high art, as practised by Liz. Many great philosophers and scientists (cf: Bacon, Newton), took it seriously.

Legend has it the US founding fathers consulted astrologers when timing Declaration of Indpendence.

Why mock someone's personal beliefs? Mocking Liz because she's an astrologer is a low blow.
 
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The following is from Lenroot Mays, from his blog The Auguries of Innocence. The points which Mr Mays raises remain the gold standard of the hurdle PGP need to jump over to make their case.

This is relevant here since we're fresh from being introduced to Nick van der Leek's trash, particularly the "No Answer" chapter from his silly book, a chapter which tries to tie Knox to Guede through a phone number which is i.d.'ed from phone logs - which is, in fact, her parents calling her and the calls go to voicemail.

Absolute stupidity on NvdL's part; but then again, even according to his proofreader, NvdL had not even heard of the case in May 2015, and by the end of the month had this cut-and-paste "book" out. Suitably "proofread" my Mensa geniuses who missed him dating the murder on June 1.

But on to Lenroot - deal with these issues, and we'll talk. My only quibble is that he, like a lot of others, sometimes ignores Raffaele as being caught up in the lunacy, too.

************************************************

Lenroot Mays - The Auguries of Innocence

When one steps back from the minute details of the case, it becomes immediately obvious that if you are to believe in Amanda Knox's guilt you must enter the world of fantasy and willingly suspend disbelief on a massive scale. You must, in short, become a believer in outlandish fairy tales. Here is a starter selection of some of the extravagant absurdities and improbabilities to which you must subscribe:

You have, first of all, to believe that Amanda Knox left the comforts of Raffaele's apartment on a cold November night for no discernible reason, and you must ignore the fact that no security cameras or remotely credible witnesses provided evidence that she had.​
You must believe that Amanda armed herself for the occasion with a large kitchen knife carried in her bag, and you must ignore the fact that she was not in the habit of doing such things, that no one saw this happen, and that there is no physical evidence whatsoever that it did.

You have to believe that by some as-yet-unspecified agency Knox met up with Guede, though, again, no remotely credible witness or camera puts them together. You must ignore the fact that she had previously had only the briefest introduction to Guede, and that the prosecution failed mightily despite enormous effort to find any further association between them.​
You have to assume that Amanda, a good student and athlete with no dark side or history of violence, could, without the barest hint of a plausible motive, butcher a lovely housemate whom she liked and esteemed.

You have to assume that Meredith died at least two hours later than established medical science says is physically possible.

You have to assume that Amanda cleaned up the scene of the murder so completely that no trace of her survived in the room where the murder took place - no DNA, fingerprints, hair, or traces of her clothing, etc. You must further ignore the fact that it is physically and scientifically impossible to clean a murder scene in this fashion without leaving evidence that you did so.​
You must assume that though the victim was hemorrhaging liters of blood, Amanda somehow managed to avoid getting even the smallest drop on her person or clothes, and somehow managed to avoid disturbing the blood in a way that signaled her presence.

You have to assume that Amanda engaged in yet another masterful act of deception by staging a break-in, something she could only accomplish through a series of diabolically clever intermediate steps that include:
Bringing a large rock into the apartment, opening the window in the direction of the wall, and then hurling the rock through so as to simulate its having come from the outside.​
Re-adjusting the windows, and then picking up bits of broken glass and throwing them across the room, precisely imitating the expected directional spray of a real break-in.

Moving shards from the rock that broke off when it hit the floor to a new spot that would suggest an entirely different entry trajectory, consistent with the spray of glass.​
In an especially clever trompe l'oeil, grabbing the rock once again and rolling it into a shopping bag on the floor, thereby creating a touch of verisimilitude that would fool all but the most lynx-eyed Perugian detectives.

You have to assume that instead of simply disposing of the murder weapon as any garden variety of criminal might have done, Amanda took the bloody knife back to the apartment where she continued to cook and prepare food with it over the next four days (No ordinary ghoul our Ms. Knox!).​
You have to assume that, instead of leaving the country like the victim's friends did, or getting a lawyer as her Italian flatmates did, or even going to the American Embassy as her family recommended, Amanda preferred to play a grueling, 40-hour+ cat and mouse game with the police - a tactic so pleasant that it left her stressed and exhausted to the point that one officer asked her if she needed medical attention.

You have to assume that the small army of investigators who awaited Amanda at the police station on November 5, some of whom were on special detail from Rome, were there just for the fun of it and because they had nothing better to do on a cold November midnight. You must further assume that the assemblage of this task force required no prior planning or authorization and had absolutely nothing to do with the fact Amanda's mother was flying in the next day to take charge of the situation and assist her daughter.​
You have to assume that when Amanda did "crumble" she did not: a) confess or b) attempt to shift the blame to her co-perpetrators, but c) blamed an innocent bystander she had every reason to expect would have an iron-clad alibi.

Surely, and as we are sane, reasonable people, the most fitting and proper response to this speculative daisy-chain of contrived nonsense is humor - derisive laughter, to be specific. It is just a breathtakingly foolish reconstruction of events and only card carrying fools would believe it.​


This is what happens when you try a crime on paper: the author fails to appreciate a borderline psychopathic criminal does not necessarily think the same way he does. For example, there were a couple of criminal psychopaths on the loose in NY a few months ago. One had simply shot a policeman in the face for no reason. The author (and perhaps, bagels), might well sneer, 'Why would someone just shoot a policeman in the face? He must be innocent.'


As the criminal psychologists keep patiently telling people, 'They do not think like us.'
 
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It's a mystery why Vixen thinks she needs to sluttify her posts like this. It means she knows she has no case otherwise.

Psychiatrist shows a Rorschach ink blot, asks what she sees:

"Two people having sex next to a dead body."

Psychiatrist shows another Rorschach and asks again:

"Two people having sex next to a dead body."

Psychiatrist asks why everything has to do with weird sex?

"Me!? You're the one showing the disgusting pictures!"


More tea, Vicar?
 

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If the jursidiction exists - and it does in Italy - Rudy can file the petition, as he has done.

Marasca's MR seems to be in contradiction of Giordano so it appears to meet the section which specifies a conviction can be appealed against such an occurrence.

So much for the PIP claim that 'Marasca was "stuck" with the verdicts of other courts'.

Four of the five parties had just 20" each over two days to submit their skeleton arguments, Bongiono's stretched over two and a half days. IIRC Thursday, Friday and Monday (half day). You say it was 'only two and a half hours, or, 150"; how is that in any way equitable with 20"?


Marasca was clearly bought by its lobbyists and probably by the Bongiorno defence. Marasca was retried immediately after, Bruno has been moved to a desk job, and is said to be suffering from psychological problems, and in any case, politician judges are now barred from this sort of case.


We know Bongiorno paid Gill, because (a) he's hardly going to do it for nothing and (b), that's her Modus Operandi (cf: Aviello and Kokomani).

You live in a wonderfully simplified world. Ignore issues put to you. Accuse those who prove you wrong being paid to do so.

Confuse fingerprint evidence with the more rigorous protocols of forensic DNA analysis.

Give Novelli as an answer to a question, and Novelli actually confirms the opposite of what you claim.
 
Oh yes, and flood the thread with 20+ posts which add nothing to what you've flooded the thread with for 16 months.
 
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