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General Holocaust denial discussion Part III

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A'isha said:
See also this.

The defense of Dejaco and Ertl was not that the crematoria they designed were not crematoria for the victims of mass murder at Auschwitz, but that they had no idea the crematoria they designed were to be used for the victims of mass murder at Auschwitz, and so were innocently misled by the Nazis into designing crematoria for the victims of mass murder at Auschwitz without their knowledge. Ertl himself testified that "Without my knowing it, they [the gas chambers] were built by members of the Kommandant's staff in collusion with the Political Department. They did this in secret by excluding all members of the Construction Directorate at that time."

And the jury very specifically did not conclude "that the rooms in question could not have been gas chambers, nor could they have been converted into gas chambers", but instead that "The majority rejection [of the charges] is based in essence on the report of the expert witness (Diploma Engineer Gerhard E. J. Dubin), according to which no conclusions about gassing installations can be made from the plans." When specifically asked by a defense attormey, "Can one read from the plans lying here before us that gassing installations were to be installed in these objects?", Dubin declared "For construction people that is not possible without other knowledge. From these plans, for me, that cannot be determined."

In other words, the jury believed the defense's assertion that the crematoria plans did not describe the purpose for which the crematoria were intended to be used (to dispose of mass murder victims) because the architects were misled by the Nazis into designing crematoria for the victims of mass murder at Auschwitz without their knowledge, not that the plans themselves proved the existence of gas chambers at Auschwitz impossible (and, indeed, the "expert witness" specifically testified otherwise).

This was despite the testimony of other engineers and prisoners at Auschwitz, and Dubin's own admission on the stand that he could not understand some of the features listed on the plans (particularly the ventilation system of the gas chambers, to which he confessed "What purpose they served, I cannot say. A thermodynamics expert must be asked." When the prosecution asked one such expert, Dr. Engineer Roman Dawidowski, a professor of mechanical engineering and thermodynamics, he pointed out that the massively overbuilt ventilation system in question made it obvious that the buildings served no other purpose than gassing).

EDIT: Also, as LeoMajor says, Ertl and Dejaco both admitted that they knew full what their crematoria were being used for at Auschwitz, and that this was its intended purpose. They just denied that they knew that at the time they designed the Kremas.
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So, as usual, the Holocaust deniers are misleading people about the nature of the trial and it's verdict.
 
HDenier said:
I have in the last 20 years spent some good money on quite a few holocaust books and after these years of looking at these books my conclusion is that these people have done a great job duping you the public. It's got to the point that "I get it" when it comes to seeing these rumors, lies and distortions of history, I refuse to get to much involved into it anymore with new books because like I said "I get it".
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So you continually ignore inconvenient facts and evidence that contradict your opinion.
How unsurprising.
 
HDenier said:
Imagine using the term "scholarship and the final solution" by way of books on the holocaust narrative. Too funny...
They can't even get the numbers right, the who what why and where and you use that term that changes yearly and daily. Scholarship, toooo funny......

How can any of these books be any kind of scholarship if they persist to regurgitate the same lies? The books that I look to with respect are the revisionist books that expose these liars at the VHO dot org website.

I'll tell you what, what books do you recommend, I might have them, next to my books on the tooth fairy and Gnomes....

My quoting that Lampshade book showed not the stupid story of the Lampshade but the quotes from those who said it was nonsense. Are we in agreement that the shrunken heads, the soap stories are bunk? Maybe you can quote one of your "scholarly books"...
I still am laughing at that wording..."scholarship and the final solution"...

The only FINAL SOLUTION was getting the Jews OUT of Germany to go other places. When I hear someone use that term then I know they no very little about Germany, Hitler, Gas chambers, fumigation chambers, concentration camps and everything else and belong to the Holocauster cult.....
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I take your answer to my question as "none." Which raises another question: if you've not read scholarly works, how are you in a position to tell us about them?
 
Tomtomkent said:
What you seem to be describing is the process of offering differing conclusions based upon continuing analysis of information.

Far from making these unscholarly it means they are open to review.

Your determination to demand absolutes is less scholarly.

Perhaps, instead of demanding a tooth, you should find out of there was any other evidence found, on which the concensus narrative is built, and if there is a reason teeth might have been elsewhere?

I'll give you a hint. These are discussed in the books you refuse to read.
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In addition, he could try to find out, from documents, witnesses, and physical studies, what was the history of corpse disposal and burial sites (how the Germans destroyed bodies and evidence of their crimes) - such as at Treblinka and Auschwitz - rather than huffing and puffing.

He cites Eric Hunt's Treblinka videos. Eric Hunt tried to defend one of his Treblinka videos here and eventually fled the discussion in humiliation. His other stuff on Treblnka is as shoddy - so dishonest and error-filled I don't know where to start. I see that Matthew Ellard has tried to start by calling attention to features found today at the Treblinka site . . .
 
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HDenier said:
. . . The only FINAL SOLUTION was getting the Jews OUT of Germany to go other places. When I hear someone use that term then I know they no very little about Germany, Hitler, Gas chambers, fumigation chambers, concentration camps and everything else and belong to the Holocauster cult.....
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Leaving advanced rhetoric about cults and cute coinages like "Holocauster" aside, you've raised a good point. Where, "OUT of Germany," did the Nazi authorities "get the Jews"?

Bear in mind that a small minority of the Jews affected by the Final Solution were in Germany in the first place, by far the largest numbers of those involved were well out of Germany - in Poland and the USSR.

To focus this question a bit, would you be so kind as to tell us then 1) where were nearly 300,000 Jews from Warsaw gotten to during summer-fall 1942, and how you know (FYI Eric Hunt has admitted he doesn't know and asked deniers to help him with this problem), 2) to what "other places" were over 50,000 Jews from Vilnius, in Lithuania, taken during summer-fall 1941, and what evidence you base your view on, 3) where about 80,000 Jews from Lodz were taken during 1942, and how you know this, and 4) where about 75,000 French Jews and 100,000 Dutch Jews were taken during the war, and the evidence also for this? Thank you, LC
 
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catsmate said:
So, as usual, the Holocaust deniers are misleading people about the nature of the trial and it's verdict.
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Which the deniers here, of course, will completely ignore even as they continue to shriek about the "lies" of historians.
 
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LemmyCaution said:
In addition, he could try to find out, from documents, witnesses, and physical studies, what was the history of corpse disposal and burial sites (how the Germans destroyed bodies and evidence of their crimes) - such as at Treblinka and Auschwitz - rather than huffing and puffing.

He cites Eric Hunt's Treblinka videos. Eric Hunt tried to defend one of his Treblinka videos here and eventually fled the discussion in humiliation. His other stuff on Treblnka is as shoddy - so dishonest and error-filled I don't know where to start. I see that Matthew Ellard has tried to start by calling attention to features found today at the Treblinka site . . .
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Whaaaaaaat? Consilience? Don't be silly- of course, the "pics or it didn't happen" approach is the only way to do historical research, to find out if a process like the Holocaust actually happened. In fact, I'm beginning to doubt that whole "WWII" thing- after all, what do we really have? Some pics of "soldiers" in "battles"- pffffft. Spielberg did that. (And don't get me started on that whole "WWI" or "US Civil War" nonsense :rolleyes:)

...at least, this is the best approach to history as I understand it from Internet posers desperate to be edgy.
 
Remains....LOL Like that is a proof of MASS exterminations....
You people here have to be the most illogical people I've ever comes across.
You're as bad as Caroylyn the Liar Colls who found a sharks tooth at her supposedly big mass grave dig in Treblinka, like that was a big deal......LOL
WOW...a couple of bones here and there, a couple of dead bodies here and there are you kidding me?

This is thought was a Skeptic sight not a stupid site.....then again so far what I'm reading is definitely not any semblance of intelligence just links to nowhere.
Definitely not what I signed up for.


JR
CCFIILE
RIZOLITV
 
Dash80 said:
Is this how history works for you?

"Pics or it didn't happen LOL"

:jaw-dropp

Doesn't matter what photos you're provided with anyway, you dismiss them.

There's footage from a gassing experiment in 1941, and no it doesn't show the interior. It does show naked mental patients being herded into the building, the vehicles and pipes leading into the building to pump in the carbon monoxide.

You'll dismiss that too, of course.
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You actually believe that video of the old man going into a room was a gas chamber....LOL
This is just too sad for me here.......

My time here is getting short....

JR
CCFIILE
RIZOLITV
 
JimRizoli said:
Remains....LOL Like that is a proof of MASS exterminations....
You people here have to be the most illogical people I've ever comes across.
You're as bad as Caroylyn the Liar Colls who found a sharks tooth at her supposedly big mass grave dig in Treblinka, like that was a big deal......LOL
WOW...a couple of bones here and there, a couple of dead bodies here and there are you kidding me?

This is thought was a Skeptic sight not a stupid site.....then again so far what I'm reading is definitely not any semblance of intelligence just links to nowhere.
Definitely not what I signed up for.


JR
CCFIILE
RIZOLITV
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Link to your claim of a sharks tooth at Treblinka?

Have you read the studies from the other AR camps, Belzec and Sobibor? Or Chelmno? I doubt it, too inconvenient.

YOU came here demanding to be shown evidence, a number of people provided it... and you dismiss everything as "links to nowhere" or laugh and mock.

If you don't like it, go somewhere else... Stormfront maybe.
 
JimRizoli said:
You actually believe that video of the old man going into a room was a gas chamber....LOL
This is just too sad for me here.......

My time here is getting short....

JR
CCFIILE
RIZOLITV
Click to expand...

You didn't even watch the footage, did you?
 
JimRizoli said:
Remains....LOL Like that is a proof of MASS exterminations....
You people here have to be the most illogical people I've ever comes across.
You're as bad as Caroylyn the Liar Colls who found a sharks tooth at her supposedly big mass grave dig in Treblinka, like that was a big deal......LOL
WOW...a couple of bones here and there, a couple of dead bodies here and there are you kidding me?

This is thought was a Skeptic sight not a stupid site.....then again so far what I'm reading is definitely not any semblance of intelligence just links to nowhere.
Definitely not what I signed up for.


JR
CCFIILE
RIZOLITV
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Please stop jumping hither and yon. We were discussing the mass shootings of Jews in the occupied East, with some specific examples - Babi Yar, Ponary and Liepaja. Your handwaving away detailed information that discusses the range of evidence about these sites - what you call "links to nowhere" - suggests that you cannot refute, or even conduct discussion about, this material.

Again, I ask what study have you conducted of these sites and what are the alleged flaws in what historians argue happened at them?

Anyone reading this thread can see that you dismiss a photograph and convergent evidence of a mass grave at Liepaja through a combination of silliness; dodging, irrelevant remarks about a shark's tooth, remains, and bones; and general refusal to engage. Instead of providing details on the sites I've asked you about, you write, rather opaquely, that "This is thought was a Skeptic sight not a stupid site"; you refer to "Caroylyn the Liar Colls" (I assume you mean Caroline Sturdy Colls, who has not to my knowledge studied shooting sites in the occupied Soviet Union), and you declare knowledgeable people here, who are eager to discuss substantive issues and evidence, "the most illogical people I've ever comes across." Do you have anything for us discuss besides empty fulminations and sad attempts at personal invective?

To answer your rather confused charge that anyone cited "remains" on their own as proof of the mass murder of Jews, please re-read this post and then tell us why the history of the Third Reich and Holocaust should be studied any differently from other historical topics.

Along the way, as we discussed the mass graves at Liepaja and other open-air shooting sites, I challenged your definition of "mass grave' and asked your scholarly source. Your reply is of a piece with your reply about the sites proper - silence. Apparently you have no source for your definition.
 
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trustbutverify said:
On the contrary, every denialist assertion has been thoroughly demolished here with well grounded historical references.
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Demolishd.....by whom? You expert HoloHuxsters here...LOL
Ok then splain this to me....You really think this is possible?
This is the case of here today gone tomorrow.....

According to the orthodox version of the holocaust, at Treblinka the Germans murdered and buried, then dug up, burned and crushed the bones, and then - REBURIED all the crushed bone and ash of 870,000 Jews INTO THE SAME MASS GRAVES thus, they allegedly - “obliterated all evidence of their crime.” If you’re unfamiliar with the controversies surrounding this “judicially proven fact,” then it’s imperative that before you begin reading you understand the forensic argumentation presented “This is the biggest cemetery of Polish Jewry… There are 870,000 Jews buried in the enormous ditches… Within this area initially, the Jews were buried in enormous pits…
Later on, a sort of grill from railroad tracks was built. The corpses were removed and this area served for burning the corpses… Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka - all three of them were utterly eradicated… Both Treblinka and the other camps, once they had fulfilled their task of extermination, were obliterated… Nothing remains - nothing. Nothing remains?
nothing
Hello....did I understand that correctly.....NOTHING REMAINS!

Who in their right mind could believe that a perfect crime could be committed while murdering 870,000 people? Everyone knows that at every crime scene - EVIDENCE IS LEFT BEHIND: “Cremated remains weigh between three and nine pounds.” In order to believe the orthodox Treblinka holocaust legend, you must believe this The Germans, by putting a layer of soil over millions of pounds of crushed bone and ash, tens of millions of teeth and tens of thousands of bullets and shell casings somehow, magically - “utterly eradicated” all evidence of their crime! Utterly eradicated? How about utter nonsense? Why would the Germans go through all that work, knowing full well there would still be millions of pounds of evidence left behind, then put all that incriminating evidence right back into the very graves that they allegedly had just dug all that evidence out of?

It’s understandable when a toddler believes that he’s made himself invisible while playing peek-a-boo by covering his eyes, but how do you explain the insanity of the holocaust “scholars” who believe that a layer of soil
can make millions of pounds of evidence magically disappear? So why do the true believers of holocaust orthodoxy accept the magically disappearing Jew “theory” when it’s been scientifically / forensically proven that it’s a fraudulent cognitive illusion? Are they truly insane, or is it because they’re just cowards who can’t handle the shrieks of denier, racist and antiSemite hurled at anyone who dares to question this nonsensical dogma.

POOF! All Gone.....
For the record this site says I can't put links up yet.....

JR
 
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A'isha said:
The defense of Dejaco and Ertl was not that the crematoria they designed were not crematoria for the victims of mass murder at Auschwitz, but that they had no idea the crematoria they designed were to be used for the victims of mass murder at Auschwitz, and so were innocently misled by the Nazis into designing crematoria for the victims of mass murder at Auschwitz without their knowledge. Ertl himself testified that "Without my knowing it, they [the gas chambers] were built by members of the Kommandant's staff in collusion with the Political Department. They did this in secret by excluding all members of the Construction Directorate at that time."

And the jury very specifically did not conclude "that the rooms in question could not have been gas chambers, nor could they have been converted into gas chambers", but instead that "The majority rejection [of the charges] is based in essence on the report of the expert witness (Diploma Engineer Gerhard E. J. Dubin), according to which no conclusions about gassing installations can be made from the plans." When specifically asked by a defense attormey, "Can one read from the plans lying here before us that gassing installations were to be installed in these objects?", Dubin declared "For construction people that is not possible without other knowledge. From these plans, for me, that cannot be determined."

In other words, the jury believed the defense's assertion that the crematoria plans did not describe the purpose for which the crematoria were intended to be used (to dispose of mass murder victims) because the architects were misled by the Nazis into designing crematoria for the victims of mass murder at Auschwitz without their knowledge, not that the plans themselves proved the existence of gas chambers at Auschwitz impossible (and, indeed, the "expert witness" specifically testified otherwise).

This was despite the testimony of other engineers and prisoners at Auschwitz, and Dubin's own admission on the stand that he could not understand some of the features listed on the plans (particularly the ventilation system of the gas chambers, to which he confessed "What purpose they served, I cannot say. A thermodynamics expert must be asked." When the prosecution asked one such expert, Dr. Engineer Roman Dawidowski, a professor of mechanical engineering and thermodynamics, he pointed out that the massively overbuilt ventilation system in question made it obvious that the buildings served no other purpose than gassing).

EDIT: Also, as LeoMajor says, Ertl and Dejaco both admitted that they knew full what their crematoria were being used for at Auschwitz, and that this was its intended purpose. They just denied that they knew that at the time they designed the Kremas.
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Excellent post Aisha. I do not believe that Jim is aware of these facts, he does no research and tends to copy and paste from other denier materiel. This is beneficial in that it discredits the more well known HD authors he quotes, like Rudolf (who is a frequent spamming ground for Jim and his circle). In a way you can say that Jim is exposing denial for what it is.
 
JimRizoli said:
You actually believe that video of the old man going into a room was a gas chamber....LOL
This is just too sad for me here.......

My time here is getting short....

JR
CCFIILE
RIZOLITV
Click to expand...


What do you propose happened to him? A breakdancing competition?
 
JimRizoli said:
Nothing remains - nothing. Nothing remains?
nothing
Hello....did I understand that correctly.....NOTHING REMAINS!
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No, you didn't understand that correctly. Mr Ellard began pointing you in the right direction on Treblinka with his post. Well-discussed material that renders your claim false includes the final chapter of Arad's book Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka; Rachel Auerbach's introduction to Donat's collection of Treblinka testimonies, In the Fields of Treblnka ("Those in the know are aware that not all the dead were cremated "); Łukaszkiewicz's investigation of the camp site (1945); Jan Gross's book Golden Harvest discussing Treblinka evidence left behind; this webpage describing the current conditions at the Treblinka II site; and chapter 8 "Burning the Corpses" here, covering the three Einsatz Reinhard camps.

You will not find in these accounts any statement resembling your attempt at paraphrasing the findings of historians.

What compels you to make false assertions about what historians have concluded regarding Treblinka?

Indeed, evidence was "left behind" at Treblinka, and that evidence is what is discussed in the links and references above. Pretending otherwise only calls into question what you are up to.
 
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JimRizoli said:
Remains....LOL Like that is a proof of MASS exterminations....
You people here have to be the most illogical people I've ever comes across.
You're as bad as Caroylyn the Liar Colls who found a sharks tooth at her supposedly big mass grave dig in Treblinka, like that was a big deal......LOL
WOW...a couple of bones here and there, a couple of dead bodies here and there are you kidding me?

This is thought was a Skeptic sight not a stupid site.....then again so far what I'm reading is definitely not any semblance of intelligence just links to nowhere.
Click to expand...

The archaeological investigation at Belzec found 33 mass graves and evidence for even more. The Polish commission that investigated Treblinka found a huge amount of ashes and bones, as well as an area of 20,000 square meters that was covered in human remains. Polish militias guarding the site reported robbery digging, often in graves up to ten meters deep that yielded all manner of remains. That is not at all consistent with a "transit" camp.

What is shocking to me is that you portray this clear, door shutting evidence of mass murder as "a few bodies". That to me can be put down to two possibilities: you are lying to us about what you have read, or you have not read at all. I encourage you to significantly raise your intellectual standards.
 
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