Split Thread Signs of the End Times

[Paul Bethke]

No mention of, or evidence for, the Rape of Egypt; no mention of, or evidence for, the destruction of the entire Egyptian army; no evidence for millions of people wandering for 40 years in the Sinai; no evidence for the "Conquest" of Canaan...

But Sir what sort of evidence would there have to be?

 

[Paul Bethke]

Why not? I quoted some such "evidence". If your have any you think is reliable, pleas refer us to the sources. I do observe, that if the "Apologists" can't account for the past, why should I pay attention to them when they undertake to describe the "End Times" of the future?

I have already shown that at first Paul expected the return of Jesus to happen while Paul was still alive. Oh, how he got that wrong!

Well the return of Christ the Messiah was dependent on many factors being accomplished, which could not have happened in his lifetime, but which surely can be accomplished in this day and age.

 

[Slowvehicle]

From all your challenging Slowvehicle, you show that you have no working knowledge of the Scriptures.

Interesting that this is offered by a person who admits, even exults in, the fact that your "knowledge" of your "scriptures" is utterly dependent upon the interpretations, translations, and apologetics of others.

Also interesting that you did not address a single issue raised in the posts you quoted.

Care to go back and answer the questions, or respond the the factual statements?

 

[Slowvehicle]

Can you prove that without the Bible?

It is from the Bible that I arrive at that deduction.

...in other words, "no".

 

[Paul Bethke]

Called it!

I appreciate your replies to my questions, PaulBethke, but you still have not explained whether a male victim of rape has to remain chaste. I understand that you believe that the rapist must be executed in all cases, and that, surprisingly, a married woman may continue her relationship with her husband unimpeded by the rapist. Could you please answer that final question for me? Must a male victim of rape remain chaste until his rapist is executed to avoid comitting adultery?

But I made it clear that a homosexual act is detestable to God—so if a man rapes a man, then conclusively the rapist must be put to death—there is no marriage bond formed out of a male having sex with a male it is as stated detestable to God.

 

[GuitKitty]

But I made it clear that a homosexual act is detestable to God—so if a man rapes a man, then conclusively the rapist must be put to death—there is no marriage bond formed out of a male having sex with a male it is as stated detestable to God.

Yes, you made that clear. But you did not answer the question. I do not like having to infer what you mean because you refuse to simply answer a question.

Is a male rape victim required to remain chaste until his rapist's execution in order to avoid comitting adultery.

It's a simple question, PaulBethke.

 

[Paul Bethke]

So your argument is unsupported and therefore has no value.

Well there is more evidence of God who created all things than to believe in an irrational belief that all creation just appeared with no designer.

How can anyone who has a logical way of thinking believe that what we have today, in perfect design, just evolved from a single cell that is completely ridiculous, don’t you agree.

Come on fella--consider the magnificence of the human body, every detail so perfect, even the heathen accept the fact of a Creator.

 

[Slowvehicle]

But Sir what sort of evidence would there have to be?

Given that I doubt that you have the "working understanding" of science that would allow you to understand what kind of evidence would be left by covering the entire planet with water deeper than the highest mountains, teaching you the answer to your questions will require you to do some background work.

Let's get started:

What, in your opinion, is the actual date of ƴ ͤ fludde?

Given that I doubt you have the "working understanding" of science that would allow you to understand the impact that a large group of people camping out in, and marching through, a fragile ecosystem (so very much like the one I live in), teaching you the answer to your questions will require you to do some background work.

Let's get started:

In your opinion, how many people left Egypt in the "exodus", and when (what date) did it happen?

Those two answers will do, to begin building you a foundation of understanding.

 

[halleyscomet]

But I do not want to sound disrespectful for all the reading you have done to establish what you so confidently believe. But what sort of evidence could there be for the Flood the Exodus and the Red sea crossing as well as the people wandering in the desert for forty years?

Examples of Evidence we'd expect from the flood:

A global flood would have left a MASSIVE impact on the fossil record and the geological table. The flood as described in Genesis would have created the perfect circumstances for the immediate preservation of each region in the fossil record and it would be a global layer. No paleontologist would be able to deny it. No archeologist would be able to deny the sudden END of all human civilization at one single point, with evidence of it being wiped out and buried in mud by a flood. We'd then have archeological evidence of a new civilization radiating out from a single point.

Instead we have archeological evidence of human civilization existing from a time period that PREDATES the time of creation as given by Genesis. While individual civilizations came and went, there is no evidence of a point where they were all destroyed at once.

Examples of Evidence We'd expect to see of the Exodus and the Red Sea Crossing:

While the Egyptians would have been unlikely to record the military defeat of their troops, we have a LOT of records from the time periods where the Exodus might have happened. None of those records reflected the presence of a massive slave population that suddenly disappears from the records, the economic and agricultural devastation that would have been caused by the plagues or the sudden loss of productivity from a massive slave population up and leaving.

Keep in mind, the crossing of the Red Sea decimates the Egyptian military, yet we have no records from competing civilizations of raids or wars that took advantage of that. We also have no records of the Egyptian military having to retrain and replace those troops. The events of the Exodus would have been enough to destroy and collapse the Egyptian government, yet it persisted for thousands more years.

We have no records of a massive die-off of firstborn sons.

Examples of Evidence we'd expect from the wandering in the wilderness.

The Bible describes a MASSIVE (for the period) population wandering in an area that's not terribly big for 40 years. The buried latrines ALONE would STILL be unearthed on a regular basis. This is not a picturesque region of shifting sand dunes where all evidence is lost to very literal "Sands of time." This is a place where there are rock outcroppings, soil and solid ground to stand on. We know where Lewis and Clark camped yet can't find any evidence of the wandering in the wilderness.

There are also no records from the region describing the conquest of Canaan, which would have been BIG news to anyone in the area, nor of any of the conflicts or encounters that would have happened with the people living in the region where the wandering supposedly occurred.

 

[Border Reiver]

But Sir what sort of evidence would there have to be?

How about the named cities that the Bible says were destroyed during the conquest of Canaan showing signs of destruction at the relevant period of history. Or in the case of Jericho, the city where Joshua "brought the walls down", evidence that it was an occupied city at that time. Perhaps records of one of the neighbouring nations such as the Hittites of the disturbances on the southern border caused by the fall of the various cities of Canaan, or an inscription of the campaign against Egypt when their army had been weakened by plague and military disaster.

 

[Crossbow]

But I made it clear that a homosexual act is detestable to God—so if a man rapes a man, then conclusively the rapist must be put to death—there is no marriage bond formed out of a male having sex with a male it is as stated detestable to God.

I used to know this one fellow who hated gay marriage but he loved lesbian porn.

 

[halleyscomet]

Come on fella--consider the magnificence of the human body, every detail so perfect, even the heathen accept the fact of a Creator.

Not really, no. Our bodies are an inefficient mess, with plenty of the issues you'd expect from something cobbled together by random changes being winnowed out by natural selection over time.

I highly recommend Your Inner Fish: A Journey into the 3.5-Billion-Year History of the Human Body.

Why do we look the way we do? Neil Shubin, the paleontologist and professor of anatomy who co-discovered Tiktaalik, the “fish with hands,” tells the story of our bodies as you've never heard it before. By examining fossils and DNA, he shows us that our hands actually resemble fish fins, our heads are organized like long-extinct jawless fish, and major parts of our genomes look and function like those of worms and bacteria. Your Inner Fish makes us look at ourselves and our world in an illuminating new light. This is science writing at its finest—enlightening, accessible and told with irresistible enthusiasm.

There's also a PBS documentary called "Your Inner Fish" avaialbe via streaming or DVD formats.

 

[Paul Bethke]

You continue to misuse the word, "proven".
I see. Your version of a legend, custom-crafted to support your prejudice, bigotry, and racism, supports your prejudice, bigotry, and racism.
Surprise
First, you have utterly failed to provide the least scintilla of any actual evidence of diet effecting a hereditable mutation. Not one speck. Your fantasy contradicts everything we know about evolution and heredity.
Second, you still have it backwards: pale skin is the mutation.
Third, there is not only no single bit of evidence that "Adam & Eve" existed at all; there is, in fact, an embarrassment of evidence demonstrating they could not have--particularly 6K years ago.
(Just as an aside, honest writers use "so" to introduce staements that follow from their arguments. "So" is not correctly used to intorduce non-sequitur.)
You continue to fail to support your fantasies with evidence.
You continue to fail to support your fantasies with evidence.

If I accept the Scriptures as the word of the Creator as I see it and not as fantasy—then my conclusion that I arrive at are fact.

If you on the other hand dispute the Bible as the record that the Creator gave us through man as his agent, then there will always be a disagreement.

Now what proof do you require to prove that the Scriptures that we have in the Bible are valid?

So as I said believing the account in the Bible, it is logical to understand that God gave man laws for his own well being, and when these laws are violated there is a repercussion.

So Adam and Eve are recorded as being the first humans on earth, so they would both be of the same colour—so how is it that there are so many different shade of this colour?

So the curse against Ham becomes clear that they would not follow the decrees of God, and so went and indulged in this blood drinking ritual, which is still present today among the black people of Africa, then added to this they further went and ate primates, and other animals that Yahweh said would defile people.

Now I know I am repeating what I have said so often, then again you and others are bringing up the subject again—if it were possible to prove that the Bibles is not the true record that the Creator gave, then I could not have come up with this conclusion that is consistent with knowledge.

 

[halleyscomet]

If I accept the Scriptures as the word of the Creator as I see it and not as fantasy—then my conclusion that I arrive at are fact.

No. It's perfectly possible to read a factual account and come to flawed conclusions. For example, I know people who have read "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" and concluded that Hitler was a good leader and that the Jews sabotaged him. Given the fact that you often come to conclusions that are at odds with those of the majority of faithful Bible scholars, it's safe to say that your personal belief that the Bible is the word of God is in and of itself, NOT proof your conclusions are accurate.

So Adam and Eve are recorded as being the first humans on earth, so they would both be of the same colour—so how is it that there are so many different shade of this colour?

Natural Selection and random mutation. As people migrated the environmental pressures on them changed and, over time, so did they. There's no mystery behind it. Dark skin is a survival advantage in a place like Africa. It's not an advantage in a place like Norway.

So the curse against Ham becomes clear that they would not follow the decrees of God, and so went and indulged in this blood drinking ritual, which is still present today among the black people of Africa, then added to this they further went and ate primates, and other animals that Yahweh said would defile people.

You have absolutely no evidence that drinking the blood of a primate will turn your skin dark and modify your DNA to change the color of your descendants. Is this belief unique to you, or was it taught as "fact" by people in South Africa when you were growing up?

 

[Crossbow]

If I accept the Scriptures as the word of the Creator as I see it and not as fantasy—then my conclusion that I arrive at are fact.

... snipped for failure ...

By your own admission, God is something that is totally subjective and therefore nothing about God can be considered to be an objective fact.

Therefore, you have failed your own argument even before you even start your own argument.

 

[Paul Bethke]

Given that I doubt that you have the "working understanding" of science that would allow you to understand what kind of evidence would be left by covering the entire planet with water deeper than the highest mountains, teaching you the answer to your questions will require you to do some background work.

Let's get started:

What, in your opinion, is the actual date of ƴ ͤ fludde?

Given that I doubt you have the "working understanding" of science that would allow you to understand the impact that a large group of people camping out in, and marching through, a fragile ecosystem (so very much like the one I live in), teaching you the answer to your questions will require you to do some background work.

Let's get started:

In your opinion, how many people left Egypt in the "exodus", and when (what date) did it happen?

Those two answers will do, to begin building you a foundation of understanding.

Now in order to do that I would have to follow the same route you have taken in consulting various studies.

So I will just have to find the appropriate study.
That would be determined by consulting a Biblical calendar.--- http://biblehub.com/timeline/

There were 600k fighting men above the age of twenty, so they who have done the mathematics believe that there were in access of two million people.

Now here is a Rabbi who gives some practical evidence, which is worth taking note of---
http://rabbimichaelsamuel.com/2010/03/how-many-israelites-actually-left-egypt/

 

[Craig B]

... But I do not want to sound disrespectful for all the reading you have done to establish what you so confidently believe. But what sort of evidence could there be for the Flood the Exodus and the Red sea crossing as well as the people wandering in the desert for forty years?

What evidence could there be for all the Egyptians' livestock being killed, or deaths of all the firstborn? These things would stand out very clearly in archaeological excavations.

What evidence that two or three million people left Egypt, and that the entire army of Pharaoh was killed pursuing them? That would stand out in the historical record.

What evidence that three million people with their sheep and goats lived in Sinai for forty years? If that were possible - it is utterly impossible; there's nothing like enough grazing for such flocks in barren Sinai - it would leave very clear traces in the archaeological record. Where are the millions of Israelite tombs of all the people who died, for example? Nothing like this is to be found in Sinai.

 

[Paul Bethke]

Examples of Evidence we'd expect from the flood:

A global flood would have left a MASSIVE impact on the fossil record and the geological table. The flood as described in Genesis would have created the perfect circumstances for the immediate preservation of each region in the fossil record and it would be a global layer. No paleontologist would be able to deny it. No archeologist would be able to deny the sudden END of all human civilization at one single point, with evidence of it being wiped out and buried in mud by a flood. We'd then have archeological evidence of a new civilization radiating out from a single point.

Instead we have archeological evidence of human civilization existing from a time period that PREDATES the time of creation as given by Genesis. While individual civilizations came and went, there is no evidence of a point where they were all destroyed at once.

Examples of Evidence We'd expect to see of the Exodus and the Red Sea Crossing:

While the Egyptians would have been unlikely to record the military defeat of their troops, we have a LOT of records from the time periods where the Exodus might have happened. None of those records reflected the presence of a massive slave population that suddenly disappears from the records, the economic and agricultural devastation that would have been caused by the plagues or the sudden loss of productivity from a massive slave population up and leaving.

Keep in mind, the crossing of the Red Sea decimates the Egyptian military, yet we have no records from competing civilizations of raids or wars that took advantage of that. We also have no records of the Egyptian military having to retrain and replace those troops. The events of the Exodus would have been enough to destroy and collapse the Egyptian government, yet it persisted for thousands more years.

We have no records of a massive die-off of firstborn sons.

Examples of Evidence we'd expect from the wandering in the wilderness.

The Bible describes a MASSIVE (for the period) population wandering in an area that's not terribly big for 40 years. The buried latrines ALONE would STILL be unearthed on a regular basis. This is not a picturesque region of shifting sand dunes where all evidence is lost to very literal "Sands of time." This is a place where there are rock outcroppings, soil and solid ground to stand on. We know where Lewis and Clark camped yet can't find any evidence of the wandering in the wilderness.

There are also no records from the region describing the conquest of Canaan, which would have been BIG news to anyone in the area, nor of any of the conflicts or encounters that would have happened with the people living in the region where the wandering supposedly occurred.

Now where will I find a counter argument?

 

[Paul Bethke]

How about the named cities that the Bible says were destroyed during the conquest of Canaan showing signs of destruction at the relevant period of history. Or in the case of Jericho, the city where Joshua "brought the walls down", evidence that it was an occupied city at that time. Perhaps records of one of the neighbouring nations such as the Hittites of the disturbances on the southern border caused by the fall of the various cities of Canaan, or an inscription of the campaign against Egypt when their army had been weakened by plague and military disaster.

I do not know where to find a counter argument--I can refer to what the Apologists say, but then you would have to take up the discussion with them.

 

[Paul Bethke]

I used to know this one fellow who hated gay marriage but he loved lesbian porn.

You used to know him, what happened to him?