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Why dualism?

Thor 2 said:
Just to put another slant on this I think the idea of living after death is horrific.
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I get the impression that this is why some atheists don't think there is an afterlife...or rather ...chose to believe there is nothing to experience after the body dies.

I wouldn't have a clue either way if there is or isn't more to one's existence although I do find it interesting checking out the various beliefs about it.

Some people are really keen on living forever in this universe and hope that science will eventually be able to solve the problem of dying. If that ever happens, then the question of afterlife would become redundant...at least for those who can afford whatever price-tag is on that...assuming of course that money and everything which goes along with that system is still the going concern...
 
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Fudbucker said:
It is, and I still can't decide which is worse: non-existence or perpetual existence?
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Of course, it would have to be perpetual existence. If you simply cease to exist, then there will be no sense of existing, end of story, lights out...you might as well not have existed really. You'd be nothing special, even for an ape...
 
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Minoosh said:
Then what makes it "your" church? If your parents, siblings and child don't share that faith I'm wondering why you identify with the church at all. Are you cursed with faith you'd rather not have?
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Yeah...careful what you say there! Eyes be watching and lips a-trembling ready for accusation that you are not one of the *group*... it sure sounds kinda cultist...the brethren are gentling warning you to 'watch your words'. Chose your words wisely or look out! :eek:
 
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Minoosh said:
This has been answered in one way, with the response that humans are on a continuum with other animals and that we are bound to share some emotions (whatever emotions are) with other advanced animals. But now I'm wondering about the "common language" thing. Do you mean this literally? That only through verbal communication can we communicate how it feels to mourn?

If a child is suddenly torn away from its mother and harmed, and I observe its parent wailing, tearing her own flesh, banging on her chest etc., do I really have to talk with her in her own language to have some idea of the agony she is feeling? Wouldn't the sudden ripping away of a child be similarly distressing from culture to culture, and perhaps even from species to species?

It's interesting to wonder about pre-verbal humans and whether they shared mutually recognizable emotions before they had the tool of language to compare experiences. In fact comparing experiences may be a relatively new function of language. Human beings would have practical problems to solve before they got down to rap sessions and epic poetry. I can't be sure a spontaneous smile is anything like a universal expression of happiness, but it does seem to be a shared trait across many cultures. Did cavemen smile? Did tears of grief only ever emerge after we had learned how to talk about grief?
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grief is an interesting thing...even with those who believe in afterlife and that they will get to see their loved ones again...I think perhaps doubt about it being the case has something to do with it...sure their company will be missed but maybe mourning is more about the mourner than the departed....
 
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Navigator said:
I get the impression that this is why some atheists don't think there is an afterlife...or rather ...chose to believe there is nothing to experience after the body dies.
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There we go again - different thread, same bull.

All the atheists I speak to do not "choose to believe" anything. We are compelled to reject belief in woo because of lack of evidence in support of it - got it!
 
Thor 2 said:
There we go again - different thread, same bull.

All the atheists I speak to do not "choose to believe" anything. We are compelled to reject belief in woo because of lack of evidence in support of it - got it!
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:hypnotize (drony monotone) * We are compelled *

I have spoken with atheists who have no problem with afterlife ideas...nothing to do with belief in god(s) - got it?
 
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Thor 2 said:
There we go again - different thread, same bull.

All the atheists I speak to do not "choose to believe" anything. We are compelled to reject belief in woo because of lack of evidence in support of it - got it!
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Yes, sigh. I conclude there is no afterlife because the evidence indicates there is none, even though I personally would like to go on living after death. But there are a lot of things that I'd like to be able to do which the evidence is against, like being able to fly like a bird.

Wishing something was true or not true, should be a bias one tries to overcome when learning about the world, not something to embrace like theists do.

ETA: That's actually more a skeptic thing than necessarily an atheist thing.

I've also heard theists say atheists don't want to believe in an afterlife because they know they'd go to hell, or because they want to be able to sin without fear of hell. It's really sad how wrong people can be, and how caught up in their own worldview they are, so they assume everyone else is too.
 
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Navigator said:
*sigh*

There is no evidence that there is no afterlife.
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There is enough to convince me. And no, I'm not going to go to all the trouble of looking it up and pasting/linking it here just for you to say that's not good enough. I already know you think it's not good enough.

Doesn't matter to me if you or a billion theists disagree with me and try to pressure me to change, based on old ideas that never convinced me before. I want to follow my own conclusions. I'd rather be wrong because I was wrong, than because somebody talked me into being wrong.
 
Why did humans develop this way? Pascal Boyer answers that in Religion Explained. Our brains see and sense conscious forces behind everything, like otherwise unexplained rustling in the grass. If our ancestors all stayed put to be devoured by predators instead of making this assumption we wouldn't be here to ask about dualism. And many times those unexplained sounds and movements had no visible animal to account for them. So unseen conscious entities were responsible. And then there were dreams ....
 
Pup said:
There is enough to convince me.
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Well that is different. You are convinced by what evidence there is and form your beliefs on those convictions. You also have other reason for not staying neutral on the question...but not staying neutral because of what evidence there is, is still an act of belief.


And no, I'm not going to go to all the trouble of looking it up and pasting/linking it here just for you to say that's not good enough. I already know you think it's not good enough.
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Yes. It is not good enough not because I think so either. It is not good enough because the evidence you are speaking about is not evidence of ther being no afterlife. That is the fact Jack.

Doesn't matter to me if you or a billion theists disagree with me and try to pressure me to change, based on old ideas that never convinced me before. I want to follow my own conclusions. I'd rather be wrong because I was wrong, than because somebody talked me into being wrong.
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*Chuckles* It isn't about 'being wrong' or 'being right'. No one knows, get it? I know you want to be right because that is part of the belief you have about your position Pup. That is why you can argue against anything opposing your beliefs. But there is no evidence, and without that, there is no need to establish any beliefs, but you do anyway...

I don't oppose your belief against nor do I support others beliefs for...because the evidence doesn't allow me to make such assumptions.

Way I see it, you are free to believe whatever you want to on the subject...but I don't accept that it is because of any 'evidence'.

Your argument that you wish there was something else but 'have to be realistic' is besides the point. There either is or there isn't and no one knows either way. You might as well just have no opinion either way.
 
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Navigator said:
:hypnotize (drony monotone) * We are compelled *

I have spoken with atheists who have no problem with afterlife ideas...nothing to do with belief in god(s) - got it?
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Oh, so these atheists you refer to, do they have the same vague idea of what atheism means, that you have regarding the nature of agnosticism?
 
Navigator said:
*Chuckles* It isn't about 'being wrong' or 'being right'.
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No because as long as "Wrong and Right" exist, there exists the possibility of you being wrong and we just can't have that can we?


No one knows, get it?
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Anti-intellectualism distilled down to it's purest and most condensed form. Any unknown = a blank slate to claim whatever I want.
 
Minoosh said:
I can't be sure a spontaneous smile is anything like a universal expression of happiness, but it does seem to be a shared trait across many cultures. Did cavemen smile?
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People who have been completely blind since birth smile. So I'm pretty sure it's hard-wired and not learnt.
 
JoeBentley said:
No because as long as "Wrong and Right" exist, there exists the possibility of you being wrong and we just can't have that can we?
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The impression I get is that 'we' can't have me being 'right' but whatever! It wasn't the point I was making.


Anti-intellectualism distilled down to it's purest and most condensed form. Any unknown = a blank slate to claim whatever I want.
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The claim made was that there is no evidence. If you have evidence provide it. Otherwise at the very least, argue against what I have said rather than make stupid snide comments about me. Okay?

Good.
 
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