Merged Now What?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Argumemnon said:
That term gets thrown around way too much, as if someone can change reality by "identifying". I identify as awesome. You have to consider me awesome; otherwise you are invalidating my experiences.
Click to expand...

Whatever you think about the frequency of its usage it is not the same thing as citizenship so it's pointless to pretend that it is.

To give you a real-life example I am a British citizen but I do not identify as British except legally. When people talk about what it means to be British most of what they talk about seems alien to me and I don't share their experiences or culture in many respects. I don't cheer for British athletes at the Olympics to give one trivial but clear example.
 
Argumemnon said:
May I ask what is the point of identifying as something counter to reality?
Click to expand...

Well in my case it's not something counter to reality but I could imagine circumstances where one feels an affinity with a group and feels they share values etc and thus chooses to identify themselves with that group.

Your argument seems to be that somehow your passport is the only reality that counts. There are lots of other realities of course some of which are objective - so someone from Hull might wish to identify as someone from Hull rather than British - and some of which may even be subjective - a person who has lived in the UK for 20 years but isn't a citizen may feel they are British even though they aren't legally.
 
Argumemnon said:
Your citizenship is the only thing that counts when identifying what nationality you have, which is what we're discussing.
Click to expand...

No, it isn't.

Remember you started this by objecting to someone identifying themselves as European. That's not a nationality.

Equally some nationalities (e.g. Welsh) don't have an equivalent citizenship.

Equally some nationalities have been usurped by others - for a while Ukrainians and Latvians were all citizens of the Soviet Union.

But again we were talking about identity. Not nationality or citizenship.

Some people have citizenship of countries that they have never even been to. Some have dual citizenship. Its more complicated than you are allowing it to be.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
No, it isn't.

Remember you started this by objecting to someone identifying themselves as European. That's not a nationality.
Click to expand...

A good point but you know what I mean: European refers to a continent. I wasn't born on it and never was a citizen of any of its countries. Ergo I am not European no matter how I feel about the matter (being of European descent).

But again we were talking about identity.
Click to expand...

Yes, we're talking about how identity clashes with reality.
 
Argumemnon said:
A good point but you know what I mean: European refers to a continent. I wasn't born on it and never was a citizen of any of its countries. Ergo I am not European no matter how I feel about the matter (being of European descent).

Yes, we're talking about how identity clashes with reality.
Click to expand...

I've never met anyone without any connection to Europe who would identify as European but if they did I would ask why rather than instruct them that they are wrong.

It might tell you something important about that person. Identity tends to do that.
 
Argumemnon said:
Your citizenship is the only thing that counts when identifying what nationality you have, which is what we're discussing. As I said earlier I can identify as Martian but it means **** all.
Click to expand...

Careful. That gets a bit bit messy in these isles, where we have a complicated arrangement of nations and countries, principalities and whatever the hell the Isle of Man is. If there is one place in the world where nationality doesn't have a straightforward response, it's here.

Further, I can strictly claim to be South African and Australian. Many English have mixed up heritage and complicated life stories, which doesn't make for easy categorisation.

ETA........and of course "European" isn't a nationality, as there is no nation called Europe.
 
Last edited:
Argumemnon said:
Your citizenship is the only thing that counts when identifying what nationality you have, which is what we're discussing. As I said earlier I can identify as Martian but it means **** all.
Click to expand...
Ah! Now I understand what you've been going on about.

Not true at all. Go back a hundred years to the beginning of the rebellion in Ireland.

At that time all Irish people were UK citizens. You are telling us that this was the "only thing that counted" in identifying their nationality? That they were identifiable as Irish nationals only in the same sense that you are a Martian?

That may be, that you are a Martian; because few people this side of the Red Planet will be found who agree with your view.

Is this a "Quebec" thing we're getting from you?
 
Last edited:
The Don said:
......Let's say there's a catharsis now and the Conservative Party rallies around the agreed Brexit position (whatever that turns out to be). Wind the clock forwards a few years when Brexit hasn't turned out as well as some may have wanted.

IMO there's a real risk that the old wounds will open up again.......
Click to expand...

Well, we'll see I guess. I suspect the narrative will be that the people spoke, Conservatives did as they were instructed by the people, and as Brexit was against government policy they can hardly be blamed if things didn't turn out well. I don't see any possible cause for disunity there. I've said previously that UKIP's fox has been shot, and that this process will solve the issues in the Conservative party. This will, in my view, lead to a leakage of UKIP members and voters to the Conservatives, and Labour's swing to the left will lead to a leakage of the disaffected white working class to UKIP, giving the latter a pointless extension of their existence.
 
Argumemnon said:
A good point but you know what I mean: European refers to a continent. I wasn't born on it and never was a citizen of any of its countries. Ergo I am not European no matter how I feel about the matter (being of European descent)....
Yes, we're talking about how identity clashes with reality.
Click to expand...

Archie Gemmill Goal said:
I've never met anyone without any connection to Europe who would identify as European but if they did I would ask why rather than instruct them that they are wrong....
It might tell you something important about that person. Identity tends to do that.
Click to expand...

Perhaps I might serve a little Brexit? You may wish to go light on the 'shrooms.

Not being facetious. Since I may have sparked this little side topic, please allow me to suggest that in a Brexit-derived What Now? thread, it might be better to tie back in to how any of this relates to the EU and the UK. And that might be by observing that identity relates to psychology, and there are people who identify with more than one culture and/or nation-state. (Citizenship is paperwork.) This ties into the fact that identity is not a zero sum game, and in spite of the outdated Hollywood cowboy movies lamenting someone "going injun," one can enjoy feeling connected to <n> number of places. Moving around can be a win-win, and Millennials get this, for example (from what I read about these elusive space aliens). All to say that this for me is entirely healthy and liberating, and good for the future EU, but I can see how it would be entirely threatening to others. Yet often, all it takes is a single chance experience, and you 'get it.'
 
Francesca R said:
As before, you not being able to "see" things might be a dreadful guide to whether they are there.
Click to expand...

I'd never seen a hallway comment like that on an internet forum. A editorial comment overheard in passing... Did you star in Yes Minister?

Touché, madame, if I've not mistaken the purpose.
 
Last edited:
Francesca R said:
As before, you not being able to "see" things might be a dreadful guide to whether they are there.
Click to expand...

As before, I humbly beg forgiveness for daring to hold a different viewpoint from you.

Oh, and "are" is present tense. My post was a prediction. That would involve being, you know, in the future.
 
MikeG said:
As before, I humbly beg forgiveness for daring to hold a different viewpoint from you.

Oh, and "are" is present tense. My post was a prediction. That would involve being, you know, in the future.
Click to expand...
The present tense is appropriate. Your post stated, also in the present tense.

I don't see any possible cause for disunity there​
The disunity may or may not occur in the future. But your not seeing cause for it is a present state of affairs.
 
Last edited:
Argumemnon said:
In terms of reality? Yes.
Click to expand...
Irish independence didn't happen? It was the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland that turned out not to correspond with reality. Otherwise your definition of reality and Martian and so forth are so remote from the normal ones that discussion with you is difficult.
Argumemnon said:
What is that supposed to mean?
Click to expand...
Again, if you can't see what "Quebec" might stand for in a discussion of this kind, we are unable to communicate effectively.
 
MikeG said:
As before, I humbly beg forgiveness for daring to hold a different viewpoint from you.

Oh, and "are" is present tense. My post was a prediction. That would involve being, you know, in the future.
Click to expand...

Future tense not required there, in fact it would be positively awkward. "I'm likely to die before the age of 100" is perfectly good grammar.

And a man who spells pus as puss and insists that 'fewer' must be used for countable nouns, rather than 'less', really shouldn't be throwing his weight around quite so much when it comes to grammar and spelling.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom