Tony harasses Bazant

beachnut said:
In what context did Bazant say "jolt". How many times did he say jolt, and please publish the context, the surrounding idea.

You are full of CD fantasy, and failed to produce evidence of more than failed physics, and maximum BS. Show your work for the impulse/jolt lost velocity and explain how falling at G can be falling at .64g... lol

Oh? List the errors for Bazant to fix, as you fail again to do practical/model physics.
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Beachnut, he said it in the addendum of Bazant and Zhou.

I did list the errors which need to be corrected in the letter I sent to Dr. Bazant. I would imagine you have read it.
 
beachnut said:
In what context did Bazant say "jolt". How many times did he say jolt, and please publish the context, the surrounding idea.
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As Tony is likely to ignore this, given how embarrassing the answer is, I'll provide it.

AFAICT, Bazant uses the word exactly once, in an addendum to the final Bazant/Zhou paper:
Note that the analysis that led to Eq. 1 [µ0=Pdyn/P0] implies the hypothesis that the impacting upper part of the tower behaves essentially as a rigid body. This is undoubtedly reasonable if the upper part has the height of 20 stories, in which case the ratio of its horizontal and vertical dimensions is about 52.8/20X3.7≈ 0.7. But if the upper part had the height of only 3 stories, then this ratio would be about 5. In that case, the upper part would be slender enough to act essentially as a flexible horizontal plate in which different column groups of the upper part could move down separately at different times. Instead of one powerful jolt, this could lead to a series of many small vertical impacts, none of them fatal.
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Nothing in the 2007 Bazant, Le, et al paper. Nothing in the Bazant/Verdure paper of 2006.

I guess that makes the missing jolt actually the word "jolt" that's missing from Bazant's papers.

(Why don't we have a math editor?!?)
 
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Bitca said:
As Tony is likely to ignore this, given how embarrassing the answer is, I'll provide it.

AFAICT, Bazant uses the word exactly once, in an addendum to the final Bazant/Zhou paper:

Nothing in the 2007 Bazant, Le, et al paper. Nothing in the Bazant/Verdure paper of 2006.

I guess that makes the missing jolt actually the word "jolt" that's missing from Bazant's papers.

(Why don't we have a math editor?!?)
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Good to see someone here knows how to use the find command in adobe acrobat. Good job.
 
True to form Tony ignores Dave R's excellent explanation. Hell man, you don't even get the collapse mechanism right. You are likely the only one that think the Bazant models represent reality.
Tony, when are you going to address this and admit you don't understand or put him in his place with verifiable physics? Everything he says is text book, you want us to believe you as an authority, why?
 
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DGM said:
True to form Tony ignores Dave R's excellent explanation. Hell man, you don't even get the collapse mechanism right. You are likely the only one that think the Bazant models represent reality.
Tony, when are you going to address this and admit you don't understand or put him in his place with verifiable physics? Everything he says is text book, you want us to believe you as an authority, why?
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You don't need to believe me. Do your own work and you will find that Dr. Bazant's papers use

- an overestimated mass which is nearly double the actual in-service load.

- a velocity through the first story generated by a free fall, which is not what is measured and it doubles the velocity component of the kinetic energy.

- an underestimated column energy dissipation capacity of about 3.4 times.
 
Tony Szamboti said:
You don't need to believe me. Do your own work and you will find that Dr. Bazant's papers use

- an overestimated mass which is nearly double the actual in-service load.

- a velocity through the first story generated by a free fall, which is not what is measured and it doubles the velocity component of the kinetic energy.

- an underestimated column energy dissipation capacity of about 3.4 times.
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So what? It's a model, not backed by reality.

You would think you'd know this considering how closely you studied the videos. The NIST and every other SE in the world figured this out.
 
Tony Szamboti said:
You don't need to believe me. Do your own work and you will find that Dr. Bazant's papers use

- an overestimated mass which is nearly double the actual in-service load.

- a velocity through the first story generated by a free fall, which is not what is measured and it doubles the velocity component of the kinetic energy.

- an underestimated column energy dissipation capacity of about 3.4 times.
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But wouldn't the actual collapses with Roosd connection failure, propagation, take only one fourth to one third the energy of the Banzant hypothetical?
 
DGM said:
So what? It's a model, not backed by reality.

You would think you'd know this considering how closely you studied the videos. The NIST and every other SE in the world figured this out.
Click to expand...

I guess you need to show me what supports your statement here.
 
Crazy Chainsaw said:
But wouldn't the actual collapses with Roosd connection failure, propagation, take only one fourth to one third the energy of the Banzant hypothetical?
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ROOSD could not and did not start on its own when the floor connections to the columns were capable of supporting about 12 times the floor weight. See the NIST FAQ on the floor connection load capacity.

Something caused the columns to fail at the start of the collapse. This is why NIST had to walk away from pancaking right off the bat.

I do not argue that eventually pancaking (ROOSD) would occur, but it isn't what started the collapse.
 
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Tony Szamboti said:
It was e-mailed to him and those shown as copied on 6/19/16.
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Is there any way you can unsend that email and unscramble the units?

Bazant might confuse the faulty missive with the incompetent ones he gets from impudent pipsqueaks that call him a liar, fraud, criminal, morally turpid.
 
Tony Szamboti said:
ROOSD could not and did not start on its own when the floor systems were capable of supporting about 12 times their own weight. See the NIST FAQ on the floor connection load capacity.

Something caused the columns to fail at the start of the collapse. This is why NIST had to walk away from pancaking right off the bat.
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Your expert opinion? That's right, the exterior columns never pulled in in your world. Why can't you separate initiation from progression?
 
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BasqueArch said:
Is there any way you can unsend that email and unscramble the units?

Bazant might confuse the faulty missive with the incompetent ones he gets from impudent pipsqueaks that call him a liar, fraud, criminal, morally turpid.
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How about I say your response to this says you might suffer from moral turpitude.

I said if Dr. Bazant corrects his errors I would laud him as an honorable man.
 
DGM said:
Your expert opinion? That's right, the exterior columns never pulled in in your world. Why can't you separate initiation from progression?
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It sounds like you are quite confused and I am not even sure where to start to undo your confusion.
 
DGM said:
Yes. This started the ROOSD progression. No conflicted between the NIST and FEMA.
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What pulled the exterior columns in to start with? Hint: NIST found out it couldn't be the floor weight due to sagging.
 
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DGM said:
So what? It's a model, not backed by reality.

You would think you'd know this considering how closely you studied the videos. The NIST and every other SE in the world figured this out.
Click to expand...
Tony Szamboti said:
I guess you need to show me what supports your statement here.
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You mean like these?
In one of the "Structures In Fire" Conference there are over twentysomething references to catenary horizontal forces that pull in columns. The same forces you deny in the WTC.


tfk said:
These are some of the papers that I've run across recently while reading tech info on Progressive Collapse & emerging methods for engineering analysis of building collapse

Some have been included in old lists.
Many are new.
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These are focused on analysis & modeling of progressive collapse.
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This first book is great. It's a structural engineer's explicitly discusses the analysis of progressive collapse of tall buildings, and includes a specific section on the WTC towers.

It’s a little pricey, and you cannot download it. You have to read it on-line.

Structural Analysis and Design to Prevent Disproportionate Collapse,
Feng Fu, City University, London, UK
CRC Press.
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Papers that support NIST, Bibliography, Engineers’ info on collapse


And this one is superb. It discusses new ways that structural engineers have been generating, since 9/11, in order to analyze collapse of buildings.

Energy flow in progressive collapse of steel framed buildings
Stefan Szyniszewski, Ted Krauthammer

Bechtel Power Corporation, US Nuclear Projects, Frederick, MD 21703
Dept. of Civil and Coastal Engineering, University of Florida, Gainesville, FL
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Dominant Factor in the Collapse of WTC-1
Konstantinos Miamis, Ayhan Irfanoglu, and Mete A. Sozen
Journal of Performance of Constructed Facilities Aug 2009, Vol. 23, No. 4, pp. 203-208

The behavior of the World Trade Center Tower 1 on September 11, 2001 is studied in light of experimental data on the effect of elevated temperature on mechanical properties of structural steel. It is concluded that the damage inflicted by aircraft impact on the insulation of the core framing was the dominant factor in the collapse of the structure.
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Irfanoglu, A. (2012). "Using Numerical Simulations and Engineering Reasoning under Uncertainty: Studying the Collapse of WTC-1." Computer-Aided Civil and Infrastructure Engineering, 10.1111/j.1467-8667.2010.00700.x, 65-76.
Online publication date: 1-Jan-2012
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J. of Performance of Constructed Facilities, ASCE, 06/2007
An Engineering Perspective of the Collapse of WTC-1
Ayhan Irfanoglu1 and Christoph M. Hoffmann

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Structural Response of WTC 7 Floor Systems to Fire
Therese McAllister and John L. Gross
Structures Congress 2010: 2351-2360.
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Omika Y., Fukuzawa E., Koshika N., Morikawa H., and Fukuda R. (2005).
“Structural responses of World Trade Center under aircraft attacks.”
J. Structural Engineering, 131(1), 6-15
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Wierzbicki T. and Teng X. (2003).
“How the airplane wing cut through the exterior columns of the World Trade Center.”
Int. J. Impact Engineering, 28, 601-625
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Modeling Behavior and Failure of Steel Connections Subject to Elevated Temperatures
O. O. Erbay, A. T. Sarawit, and M. S. Zarghamee
Structures Congress 2010: 2361-2368.
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Steel Connection Design for Structural Integrity
Ronald O. Hamburger, Kurt Gustafson, and Ned L. Cleland
Structures Congress 2008: 1-9.
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Effects of Thermal Expansion and Support Restraints on Performance of Composite Floors in Fire
H. Mostafaei and F. Alfawakhiri
Structures Congress 2011: 427-438.
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Mechanical Properties of Structural Steel under Post-Impact Fire
Mahsa Mirmomeni, Amin Heidarpour, Xiao-Ling Zhao, Jeffrey A. Packer, and Chengqing Wu
Structures Congress 2015: 87-98.
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Stability Behavior and Design of Steel Columns under Fire Loading
Anil Agarwal, Amit H. Varma, Lisa Choe, and Guillermo Cedeno
Structures Congress 2009: 1-10.
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Analysis of Creep Buckling of Steel Columns Subjected to Fire
M. A. Morovat, J. Lee, M. D. Engelhardt, T. A. Helwig, and E. M. Taleff
Structures Congress 2011: 2929-2940.
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Stability Behavior of Steel Building Structures with Perimeter MRFs under Fire Loading Effects
Anil Agarwal, Amit H. Varma, and Guillermo Cedeno
Structures Congress 2009: 1-10.
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Behavior of Floor Systems under Realistic Fire Loading
Guillermo Cedeno, Amit H. Varma, and Anil Agarwal
Structures Congress 2009: 1-10.
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Fire Induced Progressive Collapse of Steel Building Structures
Anil Agarwal and Amit H. Varma
Structures Congress 2012: 235-245.
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New Fire Resistance Test for Loaded Unrestrained Beams
R. M. Berhinig and F. Alfawakhiri
Structures Congress 2014: 1175-1184.
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Methodologies for Progressive Collapse Analysis
Steven W. Kirkpatrick, Robert MacNeill, Joseph L. Smith, Kenneth Herrle, and Mikhael Erekson
Structures Congress 2009: 1-10.
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Systems for Structural Failure Investigations in the United States
Norbert J. Delatte
Forensic Engineering 2015: 569-578.
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Systems for Structural Failure Investigations in the United States
Norbert J. Delatte
Forensic Engineering 2015: 569-578.
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Symmetric and Asymmetric Collapse Mechanisms of a Multi-Story Steel Structure subjected to Gravity and Fire
Sami And Kilic and Serdar Selamet
Structures Congress 2013: 2545-2554.
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Building Code Evolution Due to Extreme Events
S. Nikolaou and R. Gilsanz
Geotechnical and Structural Engineering Congress 2016: 712-723.
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Behavior of Steel Single-Plate Beam End Framing Connections in Fire
Guanyu Hu and Michael D. Engelhardt
Structures Congress 2010: 1554-1565.
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Karim, M.R. and Fatt M.S.H. (2005). “Impact of the Boeing 767 aircraft into the World Trade Center.” J. Engineering Mechanics, 131(10), 1066-1072
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Procedure for Simplified Analysis of Perimeter Columns under Fire
Spencer E. Quiel, Maria E. Moreyra Garlock, and Ignacio Paya-Zaforteza
Structures Congress 2010: 1580-1591.
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Impact Resistance of Ductile Spray-Applied Fire-Resistive Materials
Qian Zhang and Victor C. Li
Structures Congress 2015: 1585-1595
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Ductile Fire-Resistive Material for Enhanced Fire Safety Under Multi-Hazards - A Feasibility Study
Qian Zhang and Victor C. Li
Structures Congress 2014: 1148-1158.
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Parameters Influencing Collapse Resistance of Building Structures Subjected to Fire Loading
Anil Agarwal, Amit H. Varma, and Kristi L. Selden
Structures Congress 2013: 2578-2589.
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Predicting the Standard Fire Behavior of Composite Steel Beams
Guillermo A. Cedeno, Amit H. Varma, and Jay Gore
Composite Construction in Steel and Concrete VI: 642-656.
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Investigation of Time-Dependent Buckling of Steel Columns Exposed to Fire Temperatures
M. A. Morovat, M. D. Engelhardt, T. A. Helwig, and E. M. Taleff
Structures Congress 2012: 2095-2106.
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Fu, F. (2009).
“Progressive collapse analysis of high-rise building with 3-D finite element modeling method”,
Journal of Constructional Steel Research, 65, 1269-1278.
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Hoffmann, C.; Popescu, V.; Kilic, S. A.; Sozen, M. (2004).
Modeling, simulation, and visualization: The Pentagon on September 11th,
Computing in Science & Engineering (CISE), 6(1), 52-60.
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Izzuddin, B.A., Vlassis, A.G., Elghazouli, A.Y., Nethercot, D.A. (2009). “Progressive collapse of multi-storey buildings due to sudden column loss – Part I: Simplified assessment framework”,
Engineering Structures, 30, 1308-1318.
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Kwasniewski, L. (2010).
“Nonlinear dynamic simulations of progressive collapse for a multistory building”,
Engineering Structures, 32, 1223-1235.
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Lange, D., Roeben, C., Usmani, A. (2012).
“Tall building collapse mechanisms initiated by fire: Mechanisms and design methodology”,
Engineering Structures, 36, 90-103
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Sadek, F., El-Tawil, S., Lew, H.S. (2008).
“Robustness of composite floor systems with shear connections: Modeling, simulation, and evaluation”,
Journal of Structural Engineering ASCE, 134 (11), 1717-1725
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Vlassis, A.G., Izzuddin, B.A., Elghazouli, A.Y., Nethercot, D.A. (2009).
“Progressive collapse of multi-storey buildings due to failed floor impact”,
Engineering Structures, 31, 1552-1534.
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Selamet S and Garlock ME. (2010).
Local buckling study of flanges and webs in I-shapes at elevated temperatures.
Structures Congress, pages 1592–1603, Orlando, FL. ASCE
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Selamet S (2013).
The impact of fire scenario to the collapse of a tall structure.
SEMC Fifth International Conference on Structural Engineering, Mechanics and Computation, Cape Town, South Africa
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Modeling, Simulation, And Visualization: The Pentagon On September 11th
Chris Hoffmann, Voicu Popescu, Sami Kilic, And Mete Sozen
Purdue University
Computing In Science & Engineering, January/February 2004
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Flint, G., Usmani, A., Lamont, S., Lane, B., and Torero, J. (2007). "Structural Response of Tall Buildings to Multiple Floor Fires." J. Struct. Eng., 10.1061/(ASCE)0733-9445(2007)133:12(1719), 1719-1732.
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The World Trade Center 9/ll Disaster and Progressive Collapse of Tall Baildings
Panagiotis Kotsovinos anil Asij Usman, School of Engineering, The University
of Edinburgh, Edinburgh EH9 3JF. UK
July 20I2
DOI: 10.1007/210694-012-0283-8
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Study On Conditions For Preventing Progressive Collapse In Multistory Steel Frames
S. Minami and S. Yamazaki
Assistant Prof., Dept. of Architecture and Building Engineering, Tokyo Metropolitan University, Tokyo, Japan
Prof. Emeritus, Tokyo Metropolitan University, Tokyo, Japan

http://www.iitk.ac.in/nicee/wcee/article/14_05-05-0102.PDF
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All of these references have articles on one of the new, most important, previously neglected fields: Progressive Collapse.

All of these workshop reference the NIST Report.

Proceedings: Structures In Fires:
2nd International Workshop, 2002
Review Of The Performance Of Fire-exposed Buildings In The World Trade Center Incident Of September 11, 2001
James A. MILKE, Ph.D., P.E.
University of Maryland. Department of Fire Protection Engineering, College Park, MD, USA

Resistance Of Tall Buildings To Large Aircraft Impact And Fire
Gordon M E COOKE BSc PhD CEng MIMechE MICE FIFireE
International Fire Safety Consultant,
UK, London and Visiting Professor, School of Engineering, City University, London

Proceedings: Structures In Fires:
3rd International Workshop, 2004
4th International Workshop, 2005
5th International Workshop, 2006
6th International Workshop, 2010
7th International Workshop, 2012
8th International Workshop, 2014
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3-D Nonlinear Static Progressive Collapse Analysis of Multi-story Steel Braced Buildings
Tavakoli, Rashidi Alashti & Abdollahzadeh
Department of Civil Engineering, Babol University of Technology (BUT)

http://www.iitk.ac.in/nicee/wcee/article/WCEE2012_1112.pdf
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Simulating the Coupled Fire-Thermal Structural Response of Complex Building Assemblies
Kuldeep Prasad And Howard R. Baum
Building and Fire Research Laboratory
National Institute of Standards and Technology
100 Bureau Drive, Gaithersburg, MD 20899 USA
CTBUH, Oct. 2004, Seoul, S. Korea
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Fire Induced Progressive Collapse
David Scott, Barbara Lane, Craig Gibbons,
Arup, 155 Ave of the Americas, NY, NY10013

https://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.nibs.org/resource/resmgr/MMC/wppc_scott_paper.pdf
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(Says nothing about WTC or 9/11, but interesting)

Progressive Collapse of Steel Frames
Kamel Sayed Kandil, Ehab Abd El Fattah Ellobody, Hanady Eldehemy

Department of Civil Engineering, Faculty of Engineering, Menoufiya University, Shibin El Kom, Egypt;

Department of Structural Engineering, Faculty of Engineering, Tanta University, Tanta, Egypt.

http://file.scirp.org/pdf/WJET_2013110513305822.pdf
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Progressive Collapse Analysis of Steel Structures under Fire Conditions
By Ruirui Sun (1), Zhaohui Huang (2) and Ian Burgess (3)

(1) PhD Research Student, Department of Civil and Structural Engineering, the University of Sheffield, Sheffield, S1 3JD, UK

(2) Reader, School of Engineering and Design, Brunel University, Uxbridge, Middlesex, UB8 3PH

(3) Professor, Department of Civil and Structural Engineering, the University of Sheffield,
Sheffield, S1 3JD, UK

1. Introduction
Structural engineers have a responsibility for incorporating fire safety into their building designs in order to minimize loss of life and property. The collapse of the twin towers of the World Trade Centre in New York was a reminder of the potential of fire to cause devastating failures of high-rise buildings by initiating progressive collapse.

http://dspace.brunel.ac.uk/bitstream/2438/8413/2/Fulltext.pdf
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Abboud, N., Levy, M., Tennant, D., Mould, J., Levine, H., King, S., Ekwueme, C., Jain, A. and Hart, G. Anatomy of the World Trade Center Collapses: A Structural Engineering Investigation. Proceedings of the 3th Forensic Engineering Congress, ASCE, Oct. 19-21, San Diego, CA, 2003

[Abboud, 2010] – Abboud, N., McArthur, C., Beyler, C., Fay, T., and Iwankiw, N. Significance of Common U.S. Construction Details on Fire Resilience of Structural Steel Floor Systems. Proceedings of the 6th International Conference on Structures in Fire, East Lansing, MI, 2010
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Quintiere, J. G., Di Marzo, M. and Becker, R., Fire Safety Journal, 37, 7, (2002) 707-716.

Usmani, A. S., Chung, Y. C., and Torero, J. L., Fire Safety Journal, 38, 6, (2003) 501-533.

Choi, S. K., Burgess, I. W., and Plank, R. J., “ The behavior of Lightweight Composite Floor Trusses in Fire,” Designing Structure for Fire, Society of Fire Protection Engineers and Structural Engineering Institute, Baltimore, MD, 2003.

McAllister, T.P., ed., World Trade Center Building Performance Study: Data Collection, preliminary observations and recommendations, Technical report FEMA 403, Federal Emergency Management Agency, (2002).

McGrattan, K. B., Baum H. R., Rehm, R. G., Hamins, A., Forney, G. P., Floyd, J. E., Hostikka, S., and Prasad, K., “Fire Dynamics Simulator (Version 3) – Technical Reference Guide” National Institute of Standards and Technology Report NISTIR 6783, (2002).

Prasad, K. and Baum, H. R., Proc. Combust. Inst., 30 (2005) 2255-2262, doi:10.1016/j.proci.2004.08.118
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Explosions

Pape, Ronald, Kim R. Mniszewski, and Anatol Longinow. "Explosion Phenomena and Effects of Explosions on Structures. I: Phenomena and Effects." Practice Periodical on Structural Design and Construction 15.2 (2010a): 135–140. ASCE. Web.

Scaling of explosives test
http://digitalcommons.uconn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1000&context=cee_articles
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