Continuation Part 22: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[NotEvenWrong]

There is literally no way that Vixen does NOT actually believe the nineteen people that were hanged in the Salem witch trials were witches. She is likely just a shill. I mean, they were all convicted and executed. The official courts and the judges involved saw ALL the evidence. It was a found fact by the merit court. Similarly, all of the "pro-innocence" witch groupies do not ACTUALLY believe they were innocent. Can you imagine? All of the formal judges and people who investigated these witches getting it wrong? That's like, not even possible. Vixen is *actually* suggesting these people were just bent and trying to frame these witches. That would be like a cop faking a breathalyzer test result. Come on.

 

[Vixen]

ALL of them were witches. All *nineteen* which were executed. The official Court of Oyer and Terminer FOUND IT TO BE TRUE based on all of the evidence. Can't you see the truth???

I cannot see it has anything to do with the Kercher case. It is not like -for -like. In addition, it is quite the opposite to folk superstition, the Kercher case is founded on solid, hard, objective,reliable, measurable scientific evidence.

 

[LondonJohn]

The supreme court heard just 20" of submissions from each party plus two and a half days for Raff's barrister, Bongiorno. It did not look at any of the evidence nor witness cross-examinations. TWO merits courts found on the evidence the pair were guilty as charged.

The supreme court of Bruno (once charged for Mafia involvement) and Marasca - both politicians and appointed as political judges, with no legal career path - were as bent as a nine-euro note. The only way they could get the kids off was to blame the press and vague flaws in the police, with zero evidence put forward that this was so.

The pair are a disgrace, and no wonder one has immediately retired and the other moved sideways to a non-judiciary role

You really think this is the sum total of the information the SC panel had before it in making its judgement? Your ignorance and misunderstanding is even worse than I thought.

And there's really only eight disgraces round here: 1) Rudy Guede, the real (and probably sole) killer and assaulter of Meredith Kercher, who stands safely and correctly convicted (though unjustly under-sentenced); 2) Mignini; 3) Comodi; 4) Stefanoni; 5) Giobbi, Profazio and the entire police investigation team; 6) Massei and his court; 7) Nencini and his court; 8) The sad small cadre of internet commentators who continue a misplaced and uneducated campaign of vilification against Knox and Sollecito.

Hope that clarifies things.......

 

[Bill Williams]

Vechiotti is hardly a 'top scientific expert'.

Ah...... peer review. I did not know you were a peer of Vecchiotti's.

I know I am not. All I know is that every peer of Vecchiotti's, save for you, agree with her work in this case.

 

[Bill Williams]

I cannot see it has anything to do with the Kercher case. It is not like -for -like. In addition, it is quite the opposite to folk superstition, the Kercher case is founded on solid, hard, objective,reliable, measurable scientific evidence.

I agree. Which is why the pair were exonerated.

 

[NotEvenWrong]

I cannot see it has anything to do with the Kercher case. It is not like -for -like. In addition, it is quite the opposite to folk superstition, the Kercher case is founded on solid, hard, objective,reliable, measurable scientific evidence.

THE VIXEN CHALLENGE (PART TWO):

Vixen, find ONE scientific expert on the entirety of planet Earth that has stated the evidence collected and used against Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito was collected and analyzed properly, and the correct conclusions were reached.

David Balding is not an answer, because he only stated that Raffaele's DNA was on the bra clasp. This fact is not in dispute. Raffaele's DNA got on the clasp due to contamination, and this conclusion is supported by both all of the scientific evidence and the Italian Supreme Court (a court that is much higher and oversees the lower merit courts, to make sure they do not make mistakes like we saw in this case).

We have a massive list of people, some of who are the very top forensic scientists in the world, who have stated the evidence is faulty. Vixen, find ONE expert that says the evidence was collected and analyzed correctly, and it implies Amanda and Raffaele are guilty.

Just ONE. You can choose ONE from every possible scientific expert on the planet. Go forth Vixen! Prove you aren't insane! I am rooting for you.

 

[LondonJohn]

Ah...... peer review. I did not know you were a peer of Vecchiotti's.

I know I am not. All I know is that every peer of Vecchiotti's, save for you, agree with her work in this case.

Vixen is definitely a DNA expert whose opinion needs to be highly valued. After all, it can only be a couple of months ago that she was educating us all to the notion that DNA is a protein

 

[Vixen]

Similarly, there is no scientific indication that RS and/or AK were involved in the horrible murder which is the subject of this thread.

You yourself can only lean on "judicial truths" found in now annulled courts. Indeed, what you reserve for the courts which did this annulling is simple ad hominem.

You reserve the same for the forensic scientific community which has unanimously declared the forensics of the original investigation as deeply flawed and meaningless.

There it sits.

Sorry to disabuse you of your notions, but there is solid scientific evidence of Amanda's DNA mixed with Mez' (the police believe, both from blood) in FIVE different places, the footprints of both Raff and Amanda in luminol (a cold scientific test that has no opinion, and is merely a chemical reaction to iron, as found in red blood cells, which gives it its colour). Of course, other substance contain iron, such as turnip juice. However, you have never explained why the kids dipped their feet in said juice before padding around the murder scene in it. Mez' near full (15 alleles) DNA was on the murder knife removed from Raff's apartment. As Mez had never been there, you will have a hard job explaining how it got there, without going into the bonkers realms of 'the police planted it there'.

If the DNA evidence for Rudy is sound, then it is sound for the kids. Same process.

 

[NotEvenWrong]

Peter Gill did not analyse the evidence first hand nor even secondhand, nor did he appear as an expert witness, nor was he cross-examined. He was paid by the defence to write a load of drivel that the Rome Forensic team were ignorant and uneducated, based purely on the false premise, 'the Italian police framed the kids'.

Vixen,
As we have explained to you dozens of times, this is not how science works. One person may do the primary experiment. That person is responsible for documenting what they have done, so other scientists can examine the procedures and protocols and make sure the results are reliable and accurate.

Gill does not have to be the primary person doing the experiments to know they were done incorrectly and know the wrong conclusions were reached. He examined Stefanoni's methods and conclusions in rigorous detail and, being the best forensic geneticist on the planet, he was able to determine her methods were flawed and conclusions incorrect, and he and every other scientist on the planet has been able to determine the evidence used to convict was misleading and faulty.

Conti & Vecchiotti also separately did an analysis (with the evidence Steffi did not destroy) and came to the same conclusion as Dr. Gill: that Steffi analyzed the evidence incorrectly thus the kids are certainly innocent.

Got anything else Vixen? Can you find one person who actually does science for a living who supports your view?

 

[LondonJohn]

Sorry to disabuse you of your notions, but there is solid scientific evidence of Amanda's DNA mixed with Mez' (the police believe, both from blood) in FIVE different places, the footprints of both Raff and Amanda in luminol (a cold scientific test that has no opinion, and is merely a chemical reaction to iron, as found in red blood cells, which gives it its colour). Of course, other substance contain iron, such as turnip juice. However, you have never explained why the kids dipped their feet in said juice before padding around the murder scene in it. Mez near full (15 alleles) DNA was on the murder knife removed from Raff's apartment. As Mez had never been there, you will have a hard job explaining how it got there, without going into the bonkers realms of 'the police planted it there'.

If the DNA evidence for Rudy is sound, then it is sound for the kids. Same process.

Another area of fundamental ignorance and misunderstanding on Vixen's part. Vixen: educate yourself more about the forensic evidence against Guede. I suggest you start with the hand print in Kercher's blood on the pillowcase found under her body, then move on to the PCR-level DNA found around and inside Kercher's genitals*. Then we can at least have an informed conversation about the relative reliability of forensic evidence (clue: a reliably-matched hand print in the victim's blood on a fabric found under the victim's body is a vastly, vastly more reliable "place and time" piece of evidence than a tiny tiny piece of DNA on a knife or a bra clasp - both of which were incompetently collected, stored and analysed).

* Both of which, incidentally (and not coincidentally.....) were collected and analysed by someone other than Stefanoni. Funny, that.......

 

[NotEvenWrong]

Vixen, I am a bit shocked you are now backtracking on your views and saying the witches hanged at the Salem witch trials were innocent. Yeah, perhaps later these "people" or "experts" or "scientists" (whatever you want to call these paid shills) came to the conclusion there was no scientific evidence to support the nineteen people executed by hanging weren't ACTUALLY witches.

But they weren't there to do the primary evidence collection and experiments! How could they POSSIBLY know they weren't witches? The official merit courts found they were witches. It is a judicial truth. A found fact.

The scientists and experts that came later did not even analyze the evidence first hand!! They didn't appear in the Court of Oyer and Terminer as expert witnesses, nor were they cross-examined! All of these experts just wrote a load of drivel that the Salem judges and investigators were ignorant and uneducated, and were based on the false premise "the Salem investigators framed the townspeople".

What the heck! They weren't even Puritan! Much like Amanda they were probably all dirty sluts and would have sex with cocaine dealers on trains if they were around today! Witches all of them!

 

[Mr Fied]

Getting back to the bra clasp.

Does anyone know if the forensics team and police officers involved ever produced reference samples of DNA that were tested against the unknown profiles on the clasp?

 

[Bill Williams]

Getting back to the bra clasp.

Does anyone know if the forensics team and police officers involved ever produced reference samples of DNA that were tested against the unknown profiles on the clasp?

IIRC no one did. Indeed, this is reflected in Judge Nencini's MR which convicted the pair (since annulled) when Nencini speculated that one of the male profiles found must have been from Meredith's boyfriend since she was sexually active, and that the other two male-profiles must have been from two of her girlfriends.

But Nencini was building up to his grand conclusion - regardless of this, the point is that Raffaele's profile was found - not that others were also found. (In most jurisdictions in the world, this is called suspect-centred analysis.)

 

[Bill Williams]

Vixen is definitely a DNA expert whose opinion needs to be highly valued. After all, it can only be a couple of months ago that she was educating us all to the notion that DNA is a protein

So? You are discounting the possibility that she could have become a "Dr." in the meantime.... "Dr." in the Italian sense in that she piled up enough survey courses to get a Bachelor's Degree. Like Stefanoni.

 

[Bill Williams]

THE VIXEN CHALLENGE (PART TWO):

Vixen, find ONE scientific expert on the entirety of planet Earth that has stated the evidence collected and used against Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito was collected and analyzed properly, and the correct conclusions were reached.

David Balding is not an answer, because he only stated that Raffaele's DNA was on the bra clasp. This fact is not in dispute. Raffaele's DNA got on the clasp due to contamination, and this conclusion is supported by both all of the scientific evidence and the Italian Supreme Court (a court that is much higher and oversees the lower merit courts, to make sure they do not make mistakes like we saw in this case).

We have a massive list of people, some of who are the very top forensic scientists in the world, who have stated the evidence is faulty. Vixen, find ONE expert that says the evidence was collected and analyzed correctly, and it implies Amanda and Raffaele are guilty.

Just ONE. You can choose ONE from every possible scientific expert on the planet. Go forth Vixen! Prove you aren't insane! I am rooting for you.

As a starting point, Vixen may wish to refer to this portion of the Marasca-Bruno report which in Sept 2015 described part of the reason for annulling the Nencini verdict and exonerating the pair:

It is, rather, about ascertaining what value in the trial the genetic investigations can have when performed in a context when the analysis and findings are not at all respectful of the regulations approved by international protocols and those which, ordinarily, must take inspiration from the scientific method.

In making implicit reference to judicial interpretation of legitimacy, the judge a quo [of the trial from which this appeal is being heard] didn’t hesitate to attribute evidentiary value to the aforementioned results (f. 217).

The assumption cannot be shared.​

 

[Mr Fied]

IIRC no one did. Indeed, this is reflected in Judge Nencini's MR which convicted the pair (since annulled) when Nencini speculated that one of the male profiles found must have been from Meredith's boyfriend since she was sexually active, and that the other two male-profiles must have been from two of her girlfriends.

But Nencini was building up to his grand conclusion - regardless of this, the point is that Raffaele's profile was found - not that others were also found. (In most jurisdictions in the world, this is called suspect-centred analysis.)

That is how I remembered it.

It just occurred to me during this latest discussion, that given the inept handling of forensic evidence it would not surprise me if someone's DNA that shouldn't have been there turned up on the clasp.

 

[NotEvenWrong]

As a starting point, Vixen may wish to refer to this portion of the Marasca-Bruno report which in Sept 2015 described part of the reason for annulling the Nencini verdict and exonerating the pair:

​

Bill,
That is certainly strange. It looks like the Italian Supreme Court (the one that supersedes both the Massei and Hellman courts (the lower courts) has actually used the latest and most accurate scientific interpretation of the evidence, and thus came to the same conclusion as all of the professional scientists that have examined the case -- that proper protocols and forensic science regulations were not followed when the evidence against Amanda and Raffaele was collected, and thus the results were unreliable, invalid, and did not implicate Amanda and Raffaele. Thus there is absolutely zero scientific evidence they did it. Hmm... seems all of the scientific and higher legal authorities are in 100% agreement on this fact.

Perhaps, much like the Salem witch trials, the original convictions were not based on any scientific evidence at all, and the kids (and Salem townspeople) were actually innocent? Maybe there isn't some grand conspiracy to pay off all of the higher courts and professional scientists? Maybe, much like the Salem trials, the evidence, investigation, and trials were marred by mistakes, group think, and irrationality? Since there was absolutely zero scientific evidence in either case, maybe Amanda and Raffaele are actually innocent (and maybe the 19 executed townspeople in Salem weren't actually witches)?

What do you think of this possibility Vixen? It would avoid the rather absurd backwards logic that everyone who disagrees with you is a paid shill, and it would explain why there isn't a single professional scientist anywhere that holds your opinion on the evidence.

 

[LondonJohn]

Bill,
That is certainly strange. It looks like the Italian Supreme Court (the one that supersedes both the Massei and Hellman courts (the lower courts) has actually used the latest and most accurate scientific interpretation of the evidence, and thus came to the same conclusion as all of the professional scientists that have examined the case -- that proper protocols and forensic science regulations were not followed when the evidence against Amanda and Raffaele was collected, and thus the results were unreliable, invalid, and did not implicate Amanda and Raffaele. Thus there is absolutely zero scientific evidence they did it. Hmm... seems all of the scientific and higher legal authorities are in 100% agreement on this fact.

Perhaps, much like the Salem witch trials, the original convictions were not based on any scientific evidence at all, and the kids (and Salem townspeople) were actually innocent? Maybe there isn't some grand conspiracy to pay off all of the higher courts and professional scientists? Maybe, much like the Salem trials, the evidence, investigation, and trials were marred by mistakes, group think, and irrationality? Since there was absolutely zero scientific evidence in either case, maybe Amanda and Raffaele are actually innocent (and maybe the 19 executed townspeople in Salem weren't actually witches)?

What do you think of this possibility Vixen? It would avoid the rather absurd backwards logic that everyone who disagrees with you is a paid shill, and it would explain why there isn't a single professional scientist anywhere that holds your opinion on the evidence.

Very well put. And entirely accurate in its thesis. I genuinely find it difficult to understand how or why even moderately-intelligent people who are sufficiently familiar with the case cannot see and understand exactly this.

 

[NotEvenWrong]

Very well put. And entirely accurate in its thesis. I genuinely find it difficult to understand how or why even moderately-intelligent people who are sufficiently familiar with the case cannot see and understand exactly this.

I think I may see the problem!

 

[Bill Williams]

Very well put. And entirely accurate in its thesis. I genuinely find it difficult to understand how or why even moderately-intelligent people who are sufficiently familiar with the case cannot see and understand exactly this.

....... and once you make this valid point, you'll have to concede that it is of equal significance to Vixen's claims to point out the problems created by no cole slaw at a barbecue.