General Holocaust denial discussion Part III

[shemp]

It's simple: ever since 1945, census officials have left millions of Jews off the records. There are over 5,000,000 more Jews in Europe than the official records show. And millions more have been taken away by UFOs!

See how easy it is?

 

[Matthew Ellard]

I have several questions for Holocaust deniers:

This forum has a dedicated anti-holocaust denial thread.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=279600

In essence, there simply are not many holocaust deniers left and you are unlikely to get a response. There was a spurt of growth for deniers as the internet arose, but that spurt has fizzled again. I think that the forensic examination of Treblinka II in 2014 simply left them nowhere to go as the evidence supporting the conventional view on history is overwhelming.

However that's not the current problem. The devoted "hard core" deniers have died off. The new problem is the idiots who believe in multiple "woo" themes simultaneously. They will simply justify their belief in, say a "government conspiracy to hide UFOs" by saying "Well, you know the holocaust didn't happen and we never landed on the moon" and that's the most they ever actually thought about the holocaust or moon landings.

The Rense Organisation is a neo-nazi website that carries David Duke's radio show about how much David Duke loves America. ( David Duke lives in Austria). The Rense Organisation promotes a mixture of holocaust denial and UFOs/Aliens/Remote viewing/Alien lizard people control the world/Jewish Illuminati bankers control the world....and so on. Their aim is to simply get young idiots to add holocaust denial to their "badges of honour" as wooists.

Example of Rense Organisation Neo-Nazi Propaganda
http://www.rense.com/general50/itle.htm

It is my personal opinion that, as at today, it is a waste of time allocating resources to fight hard core holocaust deniers, as they have died out. The better aim is let the general education arms of the Skeptic Society and JREF to promote critical thinking to the general public and simply fight poor logic in the general community.

 

[Hercules56]

Forensic study of Treblinka 2?

Got a link?

Thanks.

 

[A'isha]

Forensic study of Treblinka 2?

Got a link?

Thanks.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/...linka-excavated-archaeologists_n_5062114.html

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Forensic study of Treblinka 2?

http://blogs.staffs.ac.uk/archaeolo...urvey-at-treblinka-ii-the-extermination-camp/

Dr Coll's final paper is not available yet. However as you can see the basic information is already available from Staffordshire University.

The first academic forensic investigation into Treblinka II was in 1946, headed by Justice Łukaszkiewicz. He found the human body ash and primary evidence.

The key discovery by Dr Colls in 2014 was identifying the empty mass graves capable of holding the bodies originally buried, that were dug up and cremated in Sonderaktion 1005. (This was the action to hide German war crimes when Germany started losing the war)

If you need more info, ask the anti-holocaust denial team at the Skeptic Society forum. There are a couple of real historians there, who are experts on this topic.
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewforum.php?f=39

 

[Loss Leader]

We know there were between 2.8 and 3.3 million Jews in Poland in 1938. We know after WW2, there were maybe 300,000 left.

Before the war, there were 50,000 Jews in Warsaw. After the war, there were 50.

 

[Hans]

Matthew while most of the notorious western deniers have died off. Non English speaking denial seems quite wide spread in the Muslim world

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Matthew while most of the notorious western deniers have died off. Non English speaking denial seems quite wide spread in the Muslim world

Yes. The IPIS, a public propaganda arm of Ahmadinejad Iranian government promoted and paid for the Tehran holocaust denial conferences in the last decade.

The trick was to inform the anti-Iranian nationalists so as to reduce donations to holocaust deniers who were proxy workers for Iran. This certainly reduced US donations to David Duke, who attended.

We had two Australian idiots at the conference and thus the connection to Australia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Conference_to_Review_the_Global_Vision_of_the_Holocaust

http://www.affarinternazionali.it/Documenti/Comments on the IPIS, 191.01.07.pdf

 

[Mondial]

The country with the most to gain by demonstrating the Holocaust didn't happen is Germany. In which case, shouldn't German citizens and historians be the first to present evidence disproving the Holocaust? Their country would restore its reputation and remove a historical black mark against itself. So why then isn't that happening?

The post 1945 German government and constitution had to toe the line of the Allied occupation forces. Therefore they have to follow the official propaganda version when it comes to World War 2 and the holocaust. And then there is the law against holocaust revisionism in Germany -
www.codoh.com/library/document/3568/
- in case any individual politician feels like challenging the status quo. But this hasn't stopped others from speaking out -
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10448

 

[Mondial]

Elie Wiesel who was probably the most famous holocaust survivor in the world has died aged 87. He was a fraud and a pathological liar -
www.eliewieseltattoo.com
http://codoh.com/library/document/858/
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10475

 

[A'isha]

I deliberately didn't post anything about Wiesel's death when it happened because I knew the deniers here would immediately attempt to smear their feces all over it.

 

[EtienneSC]

I deliberately didn't post anything about Wiesel's death when it happened because I knew the deniers here would immediately attempt to smear their feces all over it.

The main revisionist work on Wiesel is Warren B Routledge's book Holocaust High Priest: Elie Wiesel, "Night", the Memory Cult and the Rise of Revisionism (2015):
http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?author_id=23
It is also available on Amazon. The main non-revisionist works on him (Michael Berenbaum, Frederick Downing) seem to focus on theology and literary criticism.

 

[EtienneSC]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/...linka-excavated-archaeologists_n_5062114.html

There is a revisionist take-down of the Sturdy Colls investigation here:
https://youtu.be/6D2HhLHed7U
As Matthew Ellard notes, Sturdy Colls main work has not yet been published. The main public findings to date seem to be the location of buildings (shower rooms or gas chambers).

 

[EtienneSC]

Matthew while most of the notorious western deniers have died off. Non English speaking denial seems quite wide spread in the Muslim world

There are numerous revisionists in the English-speaking world, mostly based on the USA, despite the lack of academic sponsorship for their work. The works of many European revisionists are also available in English through the holocaust handbooks series.

One important link to the Muslim world was the French revisionist Roger Garaudy, a major French philosopher who converted to Islam and wrote against fundamentalism (l'intégrisme):
[URL="Garaudy bibliography (French)"]http://rogergaraudy.blogspot.co.uk/p/bibliographie.html[/URL]
His reputation was trashed in France in the 1990s because of his revisionism. This was unfortunate as he was a significant link between the West and Islam at a time of concern about political islam - one of many distorting effects on culture of the cult of the holocaust.

 

[Dash80]

There is a revisionist take-down of the Sturdy Colls investigation here:
https://youtu.be/6D2HhLHed7U
As Matthew Ellard notes, Sturdy Colls main work has not yet been published. The main public findings to date seem to be the location of buildings (shower rooms or gas chambers).

Take-down? LOL.

Eyewitnesses, including the SS and Ukrainians who operated them, stated there were gas chambers. Your YouTube revisionist has "taken down" nothing.

Also... I love the irony of you pointing out the study is not yet fully published. Remind us when Krege published his Treblinka "work" again?

 

[EtienneSC]

Eyewitnesses, including the SS and Ukrainians who operated them, stated there were gas chambers. Your YouTube revisionist has "taken down" nothing.

Eye-witness testimony is unreliable where uncorroborated, e.g. the reports of "steam chambers" and "electric current" (Nuremberg Document PS-3311). http://www.cwporter.com/textfile1.htm
If we doubt those, why should we accept another version of the same kind? Who are these witnesses by the way - Kurt Gerstein for the SS?

Also... I love the irony of you pointing out the study is not yet fully published. Remind us when Krege published his Treblinka "work" again?

Fair point. There was a brief report:
"'Vernichtungslager' Treblinka: archaelogisch betrachtet," by Ing. Richard Krege, in Vierteljarhreshefte für freie Geschichtsforschung, June 2000 [4. Jg., Heft 1], pp. 62-64.
Obviously it would be better if both were published. However, the point of scientific work is that it can be reproduced. We are still waiting.

 

[Dash80]

Eye-witness testimony is unreliable where uncorroborated, e.g. the reports of "steam chambers" and "electric current" (Nuremberg Document PS-3311). http://www.cwporter.com/textfile1.htm
If we doubt those, why should we accept another version of the same kind? Who are these witnesses by the way - Kurt Gerstein for the SS?

You probably know just as well as anyone that the "steam" chamber reports came from observers OUTSIDE the camps. The reports of the Polish underground speculated about the method of killing, but when all is said and done... show there was mass murder going on.

Nice dodge by the way. Dozens of SS men served at the Reinhard camps, the majority of them from the Euthanasia programme.

Try Franz Stangl, who commanded both Sobibor and Treblinka.

Or Heinrich Matthes, who was in charge of the part of the camp where the chambers were.

Or Franz Suchomel.

If you really want to stick with the Gerstein theme, how about Wilhelm Pfannenstiel?

 

[Degeneve]

One important link to the Muslim world was the French revisionist Roger Garaudy, a major French philosopher who converted to Islam and wrote against fundamentalism (l'intégrisme):

As a matter of fact Garaudy has never been considered as a "major French philosopher". And he was also not an historian.

His book "The Founding Myths of Modern Israel" is mainly a copy/paste of the existing denialists books, mainly those of Faurisson.

When he was a communst he was denying the existence of the goulag and when he became a muslim (after having been christian in between) he started to deny the holocaust. A men of great intellectual and moral probity...

 

[KDLarsen]

Nice dodge by the way. Dozens of SS men served at the Reinhard camps, the majority of them from the Euthanasia programme.

Try Franz Stangl, who commanded both Sobibor and Treblinka.

Or Heinrich Matthes, who was in charge of the part of the camp where the chambers were.

Or Franz Suchomel.
If you really want to stick with the Gerstein theme, how about Wilhelm Pfannenstiel?

Especially Suchomel, given that his eyewitness report is readily available in an easy-to-consume manner, courtesy of the secret recording from the Shoah film.

 

[A'isha]

You probably know just as well as anyone that the "steam" chamber reports came from observers OUTSIDE the camps. The reports of the Polish underground speculated about the method of killing, but when all is said and done... show there was mass murder going on.

What else do you expect from someone who cites Carlos Porter?