Brexit: the referendum

Could you lay off the Doom and Gloom for a while?

It's the morning after, and thus far the sky hasn't fallen. The £ dropped a lot, and then recovered a little. Stock markets are down because traders didn't think Brexit would happen at all.

In the next few weeks when it become more obvious that day to day life is not going to change much for at least another 3 years the markets ought to recover somewhat. The reaction of other European markets and world markets shows how interconnected we all are and how we all depend on our friends and business partners across Europe, so while there will no doubt be some over the top rhetoric from the staunchest Europhiles in the weeks to come, in the end if they take punitive economic measures against countries that dare to leave the EU then it'll hurt them significantly too.

Negotiating how and when Brexit will happen is a long and winding road. When all is said and done the UK will likely end up with similar trade agreements and migration agreements with the EU as it has right now.

Also. If the benefits of EU membership were so great and the case to stay so compelling, why on earth was the vote so close? Remain ought to have won this by a country mile. We've heard nothing but doom and gloom and stark economic forecasts for weeks of this campaign. Despite that a majority still turned out and voted to leave. Yes some of the leave voters are xenophobic nutcases, like Mr Farage (who's still a massive count imo), but the far right fringe views don't nearly account for as many votes as Leave got.


Yeah, the hysteria and "hell in a handcart" stuff around Brexit is pretty much all hyperbole.

I am very confident that the UK would, on the whole, have been better off remaining within the EU. The benefits would have significantly outweighed any negative factors. But, importantly, that's not to say that the UK is completely screwed now that it's opted for Brexit - it merely means that the UK will (IMO) be simply comparatively worse off than if it had stayed in the EU.

In a way, this reminds me of the last Scottish Independence Referendum. No serious commentator was suggesting that an independent Scotland would find itself in huge (and potentially fatal) economic/political trouble - it was just that an independent Scotland would be comparatively worse off economically/politically than a Scotland which remained in the UK.

I'm astounded by the result, and very saddened by it. And while I absolutely subscribe to liberal democracy, one has to ponder whether decisions with complex permutations and dramatically important outcomes should be put to referendum. I happen to believe, in the case of this particular referendum, that large swathes of the voting population were either poorly/insufficiently informed or incapable of performing the necessary intellectual analysis to come to a reasonable (and reasoned) decision.

I realise this could sound incredibly arrogant, condescending and "sour loser"-ish. But - just as in, say, the OJ Simpson murder trial, where the jurors subsequently indicated in interviews etc that they simply hadn't grasped the evidence of the trial properly - I think there's already growing evidence that a significant proportion of "Leave" voters did not properly understand what it was they were voting for (and against).

To extend the jury analogy, in England and Wales, there's an ongoing debate about whether complex technical trials (typically those involving complicated alleged financial criminality) should be tried by "ordinary" juries selected from the entire general public. A number of such trials have descended into a form of black farce where the jurors simply haven't been able to understand what's going on, and have thus had pretty much no option but to acquit regardless of the genuine strength of the prosecution. Perhaps (after a long pause for sober reflection) it's time to debate maturely and sensibly whether questions of such huge complexity and finality as whether the UK should leave the EU or remain within it should be entrusted to the public in referendums.

(And I would address a rebuttal in the form of "well it was incumbent upon politicians, journalists and business/employee leaders to provide voters with all the necessary information to allow them to make a reasoned and informed decision, so it's the fault of those groups if people really did make improperly-informed decisions" with two contentions: 1) no matter how long and hard anyone tried to push out information, it was still in clear danger of "going in one ear and out the other" with large swathes of the UK population - and there's already evidence to suggest this was the case; and 2) even for those who did properly assimilate the information, a significant proportion of them probably still lacked the wider contextual understanding and reasoning abilities to enable them to make a properly-reasoned decision.)



Oh, and of course I was stunningly wrong with my prediction of the outcome. I suppose I just had more faith in the abilities of the UK population (as a whole) to make properly-informed and properly-reasoned decisions. Oh well......
 
you might want to start looking at the dire predictions of 'every economist of note'

The Remain case basically boiled down to "It'll ruin the economy" I don't have a background in international finance, but there was a recent banking crisis you might recall and a lot of these 'economists of note' were wrong then. What makes them more likely to be correct this time around?


So, what you're saying is that, without a background in finance, you've decided that your lay knowledge in finance, such as it is, has been sufficient for you to disregard the considered opinion of The CBI, the IMF, the OECD, and the IFS?

What you're also saying is that, despite saying that both sides lied, you can't actually come up with a specific incidence of that on the remain side?

Forgive me, but from here, your thinking looks wonky.
 
True, but I think the next referendum on Scottish Indepedence will result in a yes vote.
I agree particularly because I don't think it will be called unless that is very likely. Which could become the case even though it is a significantly more problematic economic and financial proposition now.
 
I suspect there was a fair bit of that around. "Oooh, let's have some fun and vote 'leave' and see what happens. How exciting!".

Let this be a lesson for those in the US who might consider voting for Trump as a protest vote...
 
Question: How did this happen? I haven't been following this much, but some commentators are making the point that PM Cameron is the person who called for this referendum. It didn't have to happen now, maybe not ever. Obviously this isn't the result he expected. What was he trying to do?
It was down to internal Conservative party factionalism and the desire to avoid more defections to UKIP.
 
I agree particularly because I don't think it will be called unless that is very likely. Which could become the case even though it is a significantly more problematic economic and financial proposition now.

It's actually a better proposition now that the alternative is stay in the UK outside the EU because the economic benefit of EU membership falls only to the independence side of the equation.

I know you were getting at the low oil price but the oil price is outwith our control and so we would have had to cope with the same low price regardless. Its probably a harder sell now, but the reality of the financial proposition has just improved significantly.
 
I heard that expats in the EU weren't allowed to vote but commonwealth citizens in the UK were. Can any one clue me in on what that was about and how it affected the outcome?
I believe the justification was their level of involvement in the UK.
 
I agree particularly because I don't think it will be called unless that is very likely. Which could become the case even though it is a significantly more problematic economic and financial proposition now.

And looks as though Northren Ireland might well leave also.
Though most think N.I would not be viable as a Independent country,and after a couple of years would begin talks about some kind of union with the Republic.
 
The Best of British “Leave” Voters Realizing They’ve Made a Huge Mistake

Leave voter on BBC: "I'm shocked & worried. I voted Leave but didn't think my vote would count - I never thought it would actually happen."

The British are frantically Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

Cornwall pleas for reassurance it will not be 'worse off' following Brexit vote

The county has received a "significant amounts" of funding from the EU for the past 15 years due to its "relatively weak economy".

But, after 56.5% of voters in the county chose to leave the Union, the council says it is now seeking urgent reassurance that money allocated to it will still be received.
 
So, what you're saying is that, without a background in finance, you've decided that your lay knowledge in finance, such as it is, has been sufficient for you to disregard the considered opinion of The CBI, the IMF, the OECD, and the IFS?

What you're also saying is that, despite saying that both sides lied, you can't actually come up with a specific incidence of that on the remain side?

Forgive me, but from here, your thinking looks wonky.

I can come up with specific instances and I can link you to them. I can also for bonus points point out egregious lies spouted by the leave campaign too.

Though I'm not going to. I don't want to drag up stuff from the campaign and have arguments about who was right and who wasn't. It won't do anyone any good.

I get that you're pissed off at the result, and I realise that I am some nobody in particular on an internet forum who's arguing his case for a view you totally disagree with.

So have it it if it makes you feel better, call my thinking wonky, imply that Leave voters are all idiots for not believing the CBI, the IMF, the OECD, the IFS and any other experts you care to name.

I took really close interest in a particular EU directive, how it was written, and how it was passed, and what I saw of the entire EU political process dismayed me. I'm still convinced that the short term economic pain, will be worth it in the long term.
 
One commentator on CNN said Britian is now more divided then at any time since the days of King Charles The First and Oliver Cromwell......
 
Yeah, the hysteria and "hell in a handcart" stuff around Brexit is pretty much all hyperbole......

Probably right.


........I was stunningly wrong with my prediction of the outcome. I suppose I just had more faith in the abilities of the UK population (as a whole) to make properly-informed and properly-reasoned decisions. Oh well......

The only vote which could be seen as properly informed and reasoned, with contextual understanding, was a vote to remain. Interesting.
 
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Brexit: Spain calls for joint control of Gibraltar

The Spanish government has called for joint sovereignty over Gibraltar in the wake of the UK's vote to leave the EU.

The British overseas territory of 30,000 voted overwhelmingly for remain, with 95.9% opting to stay in the union.

"The Spanish flag on the Rock is much closer than before," Spain's acting Foreign Minister Jose Manuel Garcia-Margallo said on Friday.
 
I can come up with specific instances and I can link you to them. I can also for bonus points point out egregious lies spouted by the leave campaign too.

No, just the remain ones thanks. I'd like to see them.


Though I'm not going to. I don't want to drag up stuff from the campaign and have arguments about who was right and who wasn't. It won't do anyone any good.

No, that doesn't work. that's exactly the same as not having any evidence at all. I dismiss your 'both sides lied' statement, it is false and unproven until you prove it. Which you haven't. The floor is open for you to do so.




I get that you're pissed off at the result, and I realise that I am some nobody in particular on an internet forum who's arguing his case for a view you totally disagree with.

So have it it if it makes you feel better, call my thinking wonky, imply that Leave voters are all idiots for not believing the CBI, the IMF, the OECD, the IFS and any other experts you care to name.

That's not what I was saying. What I was pointing out was your immense hubris in deciding, with no expertise whatsoever that things wouldn't be as bad as predicted by those who actually study the subject.



I took really close interest in a particular EU directive, how it was written, and how it was passed, and what I saw of the entire EU political process dismayed me. I'm still convinced that the short term economic pain, will be worth it in the long term.


I think you're wrong.

I think you provide no evidence for your claims.

I believe your assessment of the economic situation has Dunning-Kruger written all over it.
 

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