Brexit: the referendum

This has no chance of succeeding but I wholeheartedly agree with its premise:

Petition to cancel EU referendum surges in wake of Jo Cox killing

The petitioners argue that Britain is a parliamentary democracy and that parliament, rather than a national plebiscite, should determine whether Britain stays in the EU.

“According to the BBC 444 MPs of (almost) all parties have declared their support for Britain staying a member of the European Union on the basis of the reform package negotiated by the Prime Minister,” the petitioners say.

“Constituting more than 68 per cent of the votes in the House of Commons, this represents a rate and overwhelming cross-party Parliamentary majority.

“If it is the settle will of such a large majority in the House of Commons, Parliament should now rise to the occasion and asset the very sovereignty Brexit campaigners claim it has lost.”
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This referendum idea should have been strangled at birth. We have a Parliament precisely to make decisions about big complex issues like this. The supporters of a referendum did so in the, apparently correct, belief that they could scare the public into a Leave vote, taking advantage of years of inaccurate reporting about the EU in sections of the media.
 
Garrison said:
This has no chance of succeeding but I wholeheartedly agree with its premise:

Petition to cancel EU referendum surges in wake of Jo Cox killing



This referendum idea should have been strangled at birth. We have a Parliament precisely to make decisions about big complex issues like this. The supporters of a referendum did so in the, apparently correct, belief that they could scare the public into a Leave vote, taking advantage of years of inaccurate reporting about the EU in sections of the media.
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Had 68% of MPs voted against having the referendum we wouldn't be having one. So parliament voted to pass the buck to the people and are now paying the price
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
Had 68% of MPs voted against having the referendum we wouldn't be having one. So parliament voted to pass the buck to the people and are now paying the price
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It seems that nowadays referendums are considered obligatory to authorise constitutional change. Is leaving the EU a constitutional change?
 
Garrison said:
This has no chance of succeeding but I wholeheartedly agree with its premise:

Petition to cancel EU referendum surges in wake of Jo Cox killing



This referendum idea should have been strangled at birth. We have a Parliament precisely to make decisions about big complex issues like this. The supporters of a referendum did so in the, apparently correct, belief that they could scare the public into a Leave vote, taking advantage of years of inaccurate reporting about the EU in sections of the media.
Click to expand...

What a strange thing to argue! I thought David Cameron made a referendum part of his campaign pledge should the Conservative Party win a majority, and yet he is in favour of remaining in the EU. There seems to be nothing inconsistent about having a Parliamentary democracy and a referendum. If people had been against the idea of a referendum then they should have voted against the party that promised it in the election.

Why should a petition signed by a few hundred thousand people be a more preferable way of determining the outcome than the referendum itself?

A poorly written article also as it misspells the petition: "If it is the settle will of such a large majority in the House of Commons, Parliament should now rise to the occasion and asset the very sovereignty Brexit campaigners claim it has lost"
 
A loud cheer for Anna soubry who has just spoken, clearly and strongly as usual for remaining, on Radio 4!
 
Garrison said:
Because he didn't have the guts to stand up to the whiners in his own party.
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I don't buy that. Whatever else you may think about David Cameron, he has hardly been a weak slave to whining from his own party. Did he also hold a referendum on Scottish independence to appease his whining party? Did he decide to make gay marriage legal because baying mobs in his party demanded it?

No, and no. So why do you assume it is the case with this referendum?

In any event, there was legislation passed to make this referendum happen. Legislation passed by Parliament:

The proposals were contained in the Conservative Party manifesto for the United Kingdom general election, 2015, in which the Conservatives won with an unexpected overall majority. Following the election the opposition Labour Party withdrew its opposition to holding an in-out EU referendum.[5] On the bill's second reading, on 9 June 2015, MPs voted by 544 to 53 in favour of the principle of holding a referendum with only the Scottish National Party opposing the Bill.
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So the irony is that the decision has been made by Parliament to open the issue to the electorate as a whole. The petition writers therefore ought to realize that their central demand, that this should be a matter for Parliament, has been realized. The problem seems to be that the writers of the petition simply don't like the result of the Parliamentary decision.
 
Student nurses are now going to have their bursaries taken away to be replaced by student loans because of all these cuts and closures and EU rule and austerity. It's not everybody who has a bank of Mum and Dad, or is a hereditary millionaire. In the future the Health Service will have to get most of its nurses and midwives from abroad, which could lead to a lowering of quality. It's British jobs for British workers.
 
Henri McPhee said:
Student nurses are now going to have their bursaries taken away to be replaced by student loans because of all these cuts and closures and EU rule and austerity. It's not everybody who has a bank of Mum and Dad, or is a hereditary millionaire. In the future the Health Service will have to get most of its nurses and midwives from abroad, which could lead to a lowering of quality. It's British jobs for British workers.
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Evidence?
 
Henri McPhee said:
Student nurses are now going to have their bursaries taken away to be replaced by student loans because of all these cuts and closures and EU rule and austerity.
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Total non sequitur. Other EU countries have managed to maintain funding various forms of higher education - as have Scotland and Wales. Be honest, and admit it's English austerity that's to blame.
 
CapelDodger said:
If I could venture an answer : because in local issues voters will have some basic understanding of the issue, and while opinions may differ there'll be some agreement on the facts. There's a limit to the flimflam deployed.

When it comes to issues like the EU the constant refrain is "We don't know enough, why doesn't someone just explain it?" after a lifetime of paying no attention and not really needing to. So there's no limit to the flimflam deployed, as we have witnessed.
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One could equally say that someone not entangled in the issues may well have a more neutral, less biased view.
 
angrysoba said:
What a strange thing to argue! I thought David Cameron made a referendum part of his campaign pledge should the Conservative Party win a majority, and yet he is in favour of remaining in the EU. There seems to be nothing inconsistent about having a Parliamentary democracy and a referendum. If people had been against the idea of a referendum then they should have voted against the party that promised it in the election.
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That was the bind the pro-Europe Tories were in. They could hardly fail to support a manifesto commitment.

Why should a petition signed by a few hundred thousand people be a more preferable way of determining the outcome than the referendum itself?
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It's the 68% of MP's that's the relevant point.

A poorly written article also as it misspells the petition: "If it is the settle will of such a large majority in the House of Commons, Parliament should now rise to the occasion and asset the very sovereignty Brexit campaigners claim it has lost"
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A sound argument, looking past the typos. Parliament is sovereign, not the populace, and a damn' good thing too. Have you met the populace?
 
angrysoba said:
I don't buy that. Whatever else you may think about David Cameron, he has hardly been a weak slave to whining from his own party. Did he also hold a referendum on Scottish independence to appease his whining party? Did he decide to make gay marriage legal because baying mobs in his party demanded it?

No, and no. So why do you assume it is the case with this referendum?
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Because it so very obviously was. Weren't you following? It's hardly ancient history.

Cameron has never commanded a majority of Tory MP's; his faction is in control because of the popular party vote. In Parliament he's been utterly hapless.
 
CapelDodger said:
Because it so very obviously was. Weren't you following? It's hardly ancient history.

Cameron has never commanded a majority of Tory MP's; his faction is in control because of the popular party vote. In Parliament he's been utterly hapless.
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He went along with all the Eurosceptic nonsense for an easy life, never expecting to have to deliver on all the soundbites about a referendum. Maybe if him and Osbourne had started making the case for being in the EU five years ago instead of five weeks ago we might not be in this mess, but it was easier to pander to his little Englander backbenchers and Rupert Murdoch and just cross his fingers...
 
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