The existence of God and the efficacy of prayer

MikeG said:
Right, let's see what mythical creatures we're actually talking about in toto here. We have senior god and junior god, demons, bad spirits. Do we have a devil, too? How about angels? Give us the full list, PS, because it's hard to keep track.

Perhaps, whilst you're at it, you could remind us where the sceptic in your forum name comes into your thinking.
Click to expand...


I changed my signature line for your benefit. Mythical until you experience them. You may of course choose an explanation that you like.
 
Thor 2 said:
A tad provocative there sacket.

I assume your description of your god is satire but if not you have a problem. Fear not help is at hand.:)
Click to expand...


You will not find me praying for his soul. I believe he has the free will to condemn himself to Hell if he so desires. I am a bit of a neutral bystander, unless circumstances compel me to get involved.

Others may feel it is their mission (or they get brownie points) to try and help the delusional, and drive out any demons that might possess them. ;)
 
PartSkeptic said:
Would you know a shred if it was laid out on the table before you?
Click to expand...

If you actually had any evidence, you would have laid it on the table by now.

You have had ample opportunity and multiple requests for same but you simply provide excuses for why you have no evidence to present.
 
PartSkeptic said:
Would you know a shred if it was laid out on the table before you?
Click to expand...

That wouldn't matter. If the evidence was testable, falsifiable, repeatable and so on, an individual's ability to understand it wouldn't be important. But instead of just answering a question with a question, how about telling us whether there is any evidence (as described above) for the existence of any god?
 
PartSkeptic said:
You will not find me praying for his soul. I believe he has the free will to condemn himself to Hell if he so desires......
Click to expand...

Another mythical entity and a mythical place to add to the list. Let's update it:

-senior god and junior god, demons, bad spirits, hell, soul.

No response yet on the existence of devil(s) and angels, and I'll add heaven to the query list too. So, PS, is there such a thing as heaven? Is there such a thing as a devil? What about angels?
 
PartSkeptic said:
People see ghosts. People have mystic religious visions. People have premonitions. People argue that intelligent design is an answer to scientific mysteries. People say prayer helps. People have divine inspiration. Science has been able to argue the possibility we exist in a simulation. Jesus was a historical person who led an amazing life (as did a number of other prophets). There are reasoned arguments to support the possibility of God.
Click to expand...

GIGO. Garbage in, garbage out. Your thinking may be pristine, but follow it down to faulty footing and there find flaw.
  • People don't see ghosts; ghosts don't exist; for all the usual reasons.
  • People don't have mystic religious visions, they simply fabulate from their inventive and oft-malfunctioning minds.
  • People don't have premonitions beyond the usual cautions built-into survival.
  • Intelligent design is a mere cloak for Creationism.
  • Prayer might feel like it helps; so does delusion; for a while.
  • Science, as an entity, does not argue anything about living in a simulation.
  • An historical Jesus is not demonstrably so. He was more likely a tapestry of myth.
  • Reasoned arguments supporting god are GIGO too.
 
Hey, this's fun!

As I was on my way to Damascus, I had a brainstory, excuse me, a brainstorm, and I now have found my true one only personal tiny tiny God. Oh! But I so happy!

My God is in the smile of the beggar, and in the fading of the lone dewdrop. He resides in the humble dust beneath the mite’s poor little belly, and among the cabbage leaves of autumn. So wee is He that you cannot hear His simper over the whisk of the tattering moth’s wing, nor the expiring sigh of the last Cubs fan, nor yet the crumbling of your grandmother’s final peanut butter cookie in that far-distant past when she still baked them for you, you ungrateful child!

Woe! Open up your hearts, Thor and PS! and let MY God creep simpering in to reside in your least auricle!

My God weeps a tiny but sincere droplet as He remembers what you’ve been up to lately. But He forgives. Honest, He does.
 
sackett said:
As I was on my way to Damascus, I had a brainstory, excuse me, a brainstorm, and I now have found my true one only personal tiny tiny God. Oh! But I so happy!

My God is in the smile of the beggar, and in the fading of the lone dewdrop. He resides in the humble dust beneath the mite’s poor little belly, and among the cabbage leaves of autumn. So wee is He that you cannot hear His simper over the whisk of the tattering moth’s wing, nor the expiring sigh of the last Cubs fan, nor yet the crumbling of your grandmother’s final peanut butter cookie in that far-distant past when she still baked them for you, you ungrateful child!

Woe! Open up your hearts, Thor and PS! and let MY God creep simpering in to reside in your least auricle!

My God weeps a tiny but sincere droplet as He remembers what you’ve been up to lately. But He forgives. Honest, He does.
Click to expand...

Your god changes dramatically, is he scitso?
 
Cainkane1 said:
I stopped praying when I was a little boy because nothing happened. Wasn't I sincere enough?
Click to expand...


Depends what you prayed for.

As a little boy, I prayed a lot for God to get me out of trouble after being a bit naughty. It worked most of the time. I only became an atheist at 12 when they moved me from Sunday School to Church, and I had to listen to a minister making no sense.

In my later years, my life improved in general terms after praying for my life to improve. Some specific prayers may have been answered like health improvements, but it could be I would have gotten improvements without prayer.
 
Donn said:
GIGO. Garbage in, garbage out. Your thinking may be pristine, but follow it down to faulty footing and there find flaw.
  • People don't see ghosts; ghosts don't exist; for all the usual reasons.
  • People don't have mystic religious visions, they simply fabulate from their inventive and oft-malfunctioning minds.
  • People don't have premonitions beyond the usual cautions built-into survival.
  • Intelligent design is a mere cloak for Creationism.
  • Prayer might feel like it helps; so does delusion; for a while.
  • Science, as an entity, does not argue anything about living in a simulation.
  • An historical Jesus is not demonstrably so. He was more likely a tapestry of myth.
  • Reasoned arguments supporting god are GIGO too.
Click to expand...


That is a flat denial of my experiences (and others) for the most part! I suppose you need it to support your faith in science.
 
The fourth, sixth, seventh, and eighth items aren't even on the subject of anybody's "experiences"; they are matters of fact and logic.

Only the first, second, third, and fifth are about anybody's "experiences" at all. And even on those, that wasn't denial of the experience but denial of a specific interpretation of the experience.

This is the second time recently that I've seen a supernaturalist trotting out the "experiences" line to try to hide behind it from their facts/logic problem. Is this the latest trend circulating among supernaturalist circles? Has the rumor been going around that if you slap the label "experiences" on something then the non-superstitious won't know what to do with it?
 
PartSkeptic said:
Depends what you prayed for.

As a little boy, I prayed a lot for God to get me out of trouble after being a bit naughty. It worked most of the time. I only became an atheist at 12 when they moved me from Sunday School to Church, and I had to listen to a minister making no sense.

In my later years, my life improved in general terms after praying for my life to improve. Some specific prayers may have been answered like health improvements, but it could be I would have gotten improvements without prayer.
Click to expand...

Mark 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

So - if you pray, and believe that you will receive whatever you prayed for, you'll get it.

So when the Pope prays for peace and peace doesn't happen, it's his fault because he didn't believe?
 
sackett said:
As I was on my way to Damascus, I had a brainstory, excuse me, a brainstorm, and I now have found my true one only personal tiny tiny God. Oh! But I so happy!

My God is in the smile of the beggar, and in the fading of the lone dewdrop. He resides in the humble dust beneath the mite’s poor little belly, and among the cabbage leaves of autumn. So wee is He that you cannot hear His simper over the whisk of the tattering moth’s wing, nor the expiring sigh of the last Cubs fan, nor yet the crumbling of your grandmother’s final peanut butter cookie in that far-distant past when she still baked them for you, you ungrateful child!

Woe! Open up your hearts, Thor and PS! and let MY God creep simpering in to reside in your least auricle!

My God weeps a tiny but sincere droplet as He remembers what you’ve been up to lately. But He forgives. Honest, He does.
Click to expand...

You make the best gods!
 
PartSkeptic said:
That is a flat denial of my experiences (and others) for the most part! I suppose you need it to support your faith in science.
Click to expand...

Trouble with your statement is that "faith" like "theory" has different meanings.

I have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow. From results in the past, the sun has always risen.

A religious person might say hat they have faith that they will go to heaven. They have no evidence that this will occur or that heaven even exists.

When people have faith in science, it is faith in proven results.
 
PartSkeptic said:
That is a flat denial of my experiences (and others) for the most part! I suppose you need it to support your faith in science.
Click to expand...

It's a denial of your conclusions. Your experiences are so ordinary, as you've described them, that there are reports of hundreds of the same kinds of things happening to zillions of people, so I doubt anyone is saying your experiences didn't actually happen. At least I'm not.

What people are arguing over are your conclusions. That's garden variety science. There's data, there's a hypothesis, there's further analysis or collection of data, etc. None of that denies the data exists. It's all focussed on conclusions that can be drawn from the data.

Those who rely on faith that theit conclusions are correct get huffy when challenged. I've seen this in history and genealogy too, not just new-agers or theists.

Those who rely on evidence may say a few swear words under their breath when challenged, but then they buckle down and get new evidence to build a stronger case.

If someone has faith that great grandpa enlisted in the army at 16 based on family stories, he'll think anyone who doesn't believe is calling his family liars. If someone is using family stories as evidence, but someone else shows grandpa was 18 on enlistment papers, he'll look for further evidence to support the stories, like a birth certificate or birth announcement, indicating grandpa lied to the recruiter.

My wife lost a friendship with someone when she pointed out their ancestor probably wasn't running the local underground railroad and scaring off slave catchers at nine years old. The person was taking family stories on faith, so they didn't need corroborated with census records, and my wife therefore was calling her a liar. My wife wasn't denying the family stories existed, she was saying one couldn't conclude they described events accurately.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom