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Proof of Immortality III

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Agatha,
- Do you agree with Dave?

Irrelevant. You asked Dave a question and he gave you a complete, correct answer. Agatha's agreement or disagreement may be relevant for questions you asked her, or she asked you, but it does not stop you from addressing Dave's answer. Please do so.

Also, you seem to have abandoned yesterday's discussion of the propriety of Bayesian analysis to your claim. Given that considerable attention was given to that discussion by your critics, and given that you have previously erred in ignoring such discussion, do you believe you should be granted any leniency when this topic next arises and you protest that you have never seen or read the objections to your methods?
 
Irrelevant. You asked Dave a question and he gave you a complete, correct answer. Agatha's agreement or disagreement may be relevant for questions you asked her, or she asked you, but it does not stop you from addressing Dave's answer. Please do so.

Also, you seem to have abandoned yesterday's discussion of the propriety of Bayesian analysis to your claim. Given that considerable attention was given to that discussion by your critics, and given that you have previously erred in ignoring such discussion, do you believe you should be granted any leniency when this topic next arises and you protest that you have never seen or read the objections to your methods?

Oh, and honest man (or raccoon) would NEVER make such a claim! Why, for Jabba to deny that his efforts to use Bayesian analysis had been blown to atoms would necessitate deliberate deception and would constitute an attempt to gaslight everyone in the thread! Such an act would be deplorable and worthy of extensive and merciless criticism, a digital pillorying if you will.

If Jabba WERE to do something so dishonest, skeevy and deplorable they'd deserve the inevitable digital vivisection that would result.
 
Agatha,
- Do you agree with Dave?
I agree with godless dave that you and he are talking about different models of "self".

I am unsure about what you mean by "self". The self you talk about does not appear to match either the scientific model or the generally accepted religious ideas of a soul.

I disagree with your contention that 'natural laws' operate differently on people than they do on geological features.

I disagree with your contention that Bayes' Theorem is an appropriate model for trying to show that the scientific model of consciousness is in error.

I disagree with you that you will ever turn made-up numbers for likelihood into some kind of "essential proof".
 
One of the guiding principles of Bayesian analysis is that the priors are facts, not estimates.


Huh? Bayesian probabilities are subjective probabilities, not facts. There is no reason that different people cannot have different prior probabilities for the same hypothesis; indeed, they usually will.

Sure, you can put estimates in there and run Bayesian models to see what would happen.


Furthermore, prior probabilities are not estimates. An estimate implies there is something objective out in the world to estimate. But the prior is a subjective probability.

He wants to start with posteriors and work backwards to determine what the prior "must" be.


I don't know what Jabba is specifically attempting to do by working backwards to infer a prior probability, but, in principle, there is nothing wrong with doing so, and occasionally it is useful. For example, if you can show that a particular posterior implies an absurd prior, then you have shown that the posterior is absurd as well.
 
Huh? Bayesian probabilities are subjective probabilities, not facts. There is no reason that different people cannot have different prior probabilities for the same hypothesis; indeed, they usually will.

I covered that in a prior post, and many other previous posts. When Bayesian analysis is performed in this way, it cannot be used to prove an allegation of fact. This is what Jabba is trying to do. A better way to state the first sentence of mine that you quoted, and how I have stated it previously, is that a posterior is only as good as the priors.

One classic example of Bayesian analysis is determining the probability that one has a serious disease, where the event is the outcome of your test and the prior is the measured error rate of the test. The prior in that case is not subjective, but is instead a measurement. In Bayesian terminology it is characterized as a "belief," but it is not the same kind of belief as believing in God or space cows. In one of the other threads, several months ago, I gave a different example of how a more subjective belief would be used.
 
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I covered that in a prior post. When Bayesian analysis is performed in this way, it cannot be used to prove an allegation of fact. This is what Jabba is trying to do.


Well, that's the way Bayesian analysis is normally used. The result is a posterior probability for a hypothesis or a posterior distribution for a population parameter. The outcome is only a "proof" up to a probability. Of course, sometimes the probability is so extreme, or the distribution so narrow, that for all intents and purposes the outcome can be considered definitive.
 
Bullshido Introduction

I now present a Bullshido Analysis of the statistical likelihood of an immortal "soul" and the likelihood that Jabba is a quasi-sentient typing raccoon.

Bullshido works by analyzing the number of key assumptions in relation to the number of assumptions that can be proven and the number of observed intersections between those assumptions all related back to the number of possible test cases. POOF! An evidence-free way to calculate the likelihood of something.

Jabba the raccoon?

We'll start with Jabba being a quasi-sentient typing raccoon.

Key assumptions:

  1. Raccoons exist.
  2. Jabba exists.
  3. There are Raccoons who can type.
  4. Jabba can type.
  5. Jabba is a raccoon
  6. There are raccoons who are quasi-sentient
  7. Jabba is quasi-sentient.

We know Jabba exists, raccoons exist, Jabba can type, there are raccoons that can type (I posted a photo). We don't have observational proof that Jabba is a raccoon or that Jabba or any raccoons are quasi-sentient. That means we take the 7 key assumptions and subtract the 3 we haven't observed.

Next we look for interconnections. Jabba Exists and he can type. Jabba exists and Raccoons exist and so on. we'll just take the 4 assumptions we can observe and square it, to get 16.

We add 16 and 4 to get 20. this is our base number.

We need to divide this number by the number of raccoons in the world. Sadly, I can't find a good number on that, so we'll fudge it with the number of Humans in the world, which we'll round down to 6 billion. If we run that equation we learn that the odds that Jabba is a quasi-sentient talking raccoon are 1 out of 300 million. That's better odds than most lotteries!

Immortality!

Key assumptions:

  1. People exist.
  2. People have some component of consciousness that persists after corporeal death, a "soul" if you will.
  3. The soul is immortal

We see people everyday, so they know we exist. the other two have no observations to support them. Since we're already using 6 billion as the human population, the odds of immortality existing are 1 in 6 billion.

Final Conclusion:
Odds Jabba is a typing, quasi-sentient raccoon: 1 in 300 million.
Odds of immortality existing in some capacity: 1 in 6 billion.

Myth Busted!
https://thenattybrofessor.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/myth-busted.jpg

wwwrcrncom_5018709_19499626.png


I should write that up and submit it to a statistics journal.
 
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Well, that's the way Bayesian analysis is normally used. The result is a posterior probability for a hypothesis or a posterior distribution for a population parameter. The outcome is only a "proof" up to a probability.

That's essentially my point. Jabba wants to prove something must factually exist by purporting to show, via Bayes, that its alternative must be vanishingly improbable.

Of course, sometimes the probability is so extreme, or the distribution so narrow, that for all intents and purposes the outcome can be considered definitive.

That's how I use it most often. The priors are measurements that incorporate some uncertainty.
 
Well, that's the way Bayesian analysis is normally used. The result is a posterior probability for a hypothesis or a posterior distribution for a population parameter. The outcome is only a "proof" up to a probability. Of course, sometimes the probability is so extreme, or the distribution so narrow, that for all intents and purposes the outcome can be considered definitive.


jt512 -

If you haven't done so already, I urge you to visit Jabba's mathematical "proof" here. Then please advise what you think of his application of poor Mr. Bayes' theorem.
 
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Immortality + Bayesian Statistics can't be two lines that diverge that often.

Indeed, as I reported in Jabba's Shroud of Turin thread, it is quite common for fringe theories to adopt a Bayesian approach, among the proponents who are aware of it. jt512 isn't wrong. You can certainly use purely subjective beliefs -- quantified as probabilities -- for elements of the model. The ability to resolve uncertainty in a model with something other than a random variable is, in many cases, a very powerful thing. But it has to be emphasized (and in textbooks ubiquitously is) that the more informed your beliefs are, the better time you're going to have with Bayes. That's the part Jabba and other fringe theorists skip over. They jump straight to the words "reason reliably using only beliefs." And they ignore entirely the notion that a model which produces only probabilities can never establish an allegation of fact, even when it's printed in bold red letters.

As I many have mentioned, a few years ago I engineeringly helped out a friend who owns our local ISP Here's an example from a tool they use.

Bloomberg tells me that 86% of all email is spam. Thus when an email arrives for a customer, we say there's a prior probability of 0.86 that it is spam. That's a belief, in the Bayesian sense. Although it is a belief informed by historical trends, it is a probability assigned based solely on the fact that the message is a message and therefore "most likely" spam.

Naturally there are many tests they can perform. Two dozen or so, last time they showed me the rule set. One of them is an originator location test. Ten percent of all spam comes from Vietnam, so if the originator is in Vietnam, you say there's a probability 0.10 that it's spam. But that, as well as any other test, is not perfectly accurate. We establish a belief in the rate of false positives (from Vietnam but not spam) and false negatives (not from Vietnam, but still spam) and use those to adjust our belief (the message is spam) based on that new event -- the Vietnam-location test. How is that belief established? In this case, by noting when someone drags a message back into his inbox out of his spam folder. The tool considers that a false positive and updates the "beliefs" associated with the accuracy of each test.

The Vietnam test has a very high false negative rate (not from Vietnam yet still spam) and a relatively low false positive rate (from Vietnam and not spam). You can use any method to establish those beliefs in the false positive and negative rates, but if you just pull numbers out of your kiester then you will get results that reflect those arbitrary beliefs. Where Bayes shines is in its ability to take both failure rates into account. The U.S. sends more spam than Vietnam, p = 0.12. But it sends more legitimate email too. So the false positive and negative rates for the U.S. mitigate the raw probability via Bayes in different ways, producing different numerical results. Each origin country is a separate Bayesian event. In Bayesian terms these are still accounted as "beliefs," since identification of origin by political divisions is somewhat arbitrary. It encodes the belief that the geographical origin of a message relates to its likelihood of being spam.

What emerges from the iteration of Bayes theorem is the posterior probability that an email is spam, which adjusts our prior probability based solely on historical spam rates using information particular to that message -- again incorporating our beliefs about how reliably that information relates to the prior.

Repeat for the rest of the tests.

What comes out the end is the ultimate posterior probability of a message being spam. It's still just a probability. The determination of spamminess as a fact is ultimately the customer's choice. If he drags a message back into his inbox, that's an assertion of the fact "No, this is not spam" even if the ultimately computed posterior probability of its being spam is 0.999. That is the qualitative difference between a Bayesian determination and a finding of fact. At every step of the process we deal in quantified beliefs, not facts. We do a very good job of making those beliefs as predicated as possible upon fact.

Several months ago I listed the example of a Bayesian search to locate one's friend in a casino. In similar fashion, the probability we compute that he will be at some particular gambling station is qualitatively detached from the fact of actually finding him at a particular place.
 
In no way, under any circumstances, by any means, can a probabilistic argument be proof of an allegation of fact.

Probabilistic logic reduces to deductive logic in the limit where the probability of the statements is 0 or 1. A deductive argument can hence be seen as a special case of a probabilistic argument. Ergo, if a deductive argument can be proof of an allegation of fact then so can a probabilistic argument.
 
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Probabilistic logic reduces to deductive logic in the limit where the probability of the statements is 0 or 1. A deductive argument can hence be seen as a special case of a probabilistic argument. Ergo, if a deductive argument can be proof of an allegation of fact then so can a probabilistic argument.
Prosecutor's Fallacy. The limit you describe identifies the difference in modes of reasoning that, say, a court would allow to be employed. But more importantly there are qualitative differences in how we reason when probability is equivalent knowledge, so there isn't really any useful tooth to the "special case of" proposition. The only reason you would be making a probabilistic argument is if the probabilities aren't 0 or 1.

Using my example above, I can compute any arbitrarily high probability (even approaching 1) that a message is spam, and that's one mode of obtaining belief. But if the customer says, "No, that email from my uncle's business in Vietnam is not spam," then that's a completely different mode of reasoning. Hence whitelists, where we can rely upon knowledge (not belief) that a particular origin is legitimate. Saying that this belief is tantamount to a probability of 0 (for spam) is just empty rhetoric. It's numerically true, but misses the point.
 
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I agree with godless dave that you and he are talking about different models of "self".

I am unsure about what you mean by "self". The self you talk about does not appear to match either the scientific model or the generally accepted religious ideas of a soul.
Agatha,
- But, it does match Eastern religious ideas of a soul.

I disagree with your contention that 'natural laws' operate differently on people than they do on geological features.
- I accept that natural law operates just as completely on material selves as they do on mountains. I just believe that there is an immaterial self that science either denies or is confused about. The following video expresses my thoughts on this issue quite well. https://www.scienceandnonduality.com/?gclid=CNDcraOloM0CFdgcgQodRGAEmw

I disagree with your contention that Bayes' Theorem is an appropriate model for trying to show that the scientific model of consciousness is in error.
- There is no single scientific model of consciousness. I'm just claiming that Bayesian statistics virtually disproves OOFLam.

I disagree with you that you will ever turn made-up numbers for likelihood into some kind of "essential proof".
- These are "made-up numbers" only in the sense that they are "estimates" (or as jt says, "subjective" numbers) which is totally appropriate in Bayesian statistics.
 
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